London News: Post Experiences, Discussion Here

They are reporting that internet access is flooded, you won't get many reports now.

According to CNN there have been 7 subway explosions and at least 3 bus explosions.

Wait and see for more info I guess.

Many explosions almost simultaneously.

We know what that usually means :(

Originally posted by Omega
Heard it was six explosions

You are right, there is many more than 3 explosions. That's really bad news, and like Anders said, we know what it means.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/top.bus.wreckage.ap.jpg

last update :
all the bombs did not explode, and police is checking this.

Alive and well.

I was on the fucking tube. Meeting in town in 0900, caught the train from Liverpool Street.

Very freaked out city. But this is not our 9/11. People aren't crying all over town. These fuckers won't cow us. I'll be on the tube tomorrow.

Fuck them.

Originally posted by Harald
Alive and well.

I was on the fucking tube. Meeting in town in 0900, caught the train from Liverpool Street.

Very freaked out city. But this is not our 9/11. People aren't crying all over town. These fuckers won't cow us. I'll be on the tube tomorrow.

Fuck them.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Harald
Alive and well.

I was on the fucking tube. Meeting in town in 0900, caught the train from Liverpool Street.

Very freaked out city. But this is not our 9/11. People aren't crying all over town. These fuckers won't cow us. I'll be on the tube tomorrow.

Fuck them.

Harald,

Glad to hear you are OK :). Sounds like it was a close call :(.

I'm stuck in the office, might be stuck in London if they don't start running trains in/out again - considering I have to go from Kings Cross, one of the suspected sites, I think I might be here for a while :(.

These fuckers won't cow us.

Damn right!

Someone have taken the responsibility. It could be a those who did it, it could be a teenager in his parent basement without any relation to the attack.

Can anyone translate?

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,490370,00.jpg

I'm in Old Street, between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street, I come to work via th Thameslink overground train to Kings Cross. At 9.45 this morning as I got out into the street, there were thousands of people walking away from the station. People were just saying that the station was closed due to an explosion caused by a power surge. Usually I would get on a bus and travel the last couple of k's, but there were no busses. By the time I got to work it was obvious that it was a terrorist attack. It's now 13.40 and still I am hearing many sirens outside as the emergency services do their stuff. People are very calm, doesn't seem to be any panic, but I am not at the heart of all the commotion.

edit: I deleted the post as my original comment was not appropriate under the circumstances.

Sorry :(.

Originally posted by Sceptic
heh.

It is kinda eerie though.

Unlike 9/11 which was out of the blue, in hindsight there was a horrible sense of inevitability about this type of attack.

I think this accounts for the less hysterical/more subdued response.

Really? I suppose you can say that it's been timed to coincide with the start of the G8 summit, but apart from that...? Maybe I need to read the news more :).

Originally posted by Sceptic
Well after Madrid, the ongoing shanagans in Iraq, the fact England is the principal ally in the "War on Terror"...an attack in London doesn't really seem that unbelievable. Certainly doesn't have that "OMG WTF" quality 9/11 had.

Agreed. Sorry, I thought you meant that there had been some more recent specific indications, but I now see where you are coming from.

It's not all stiff upper lips and " London can take it". There was panic, confusion, screaming,shock, anger,revulsion.

A series of bus and subway attacks kills 40 and injures 300. Blair makes remarks and leaves G8 summit.

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/07/AR2005070700221_pf.html

First, let me say my prayers are with the families of those killed, with the injured, and with British people. May you find who is responsible and kill them.

Please don't talk of more killing today, thankyou. There is also a sticky thread in AO at the moment.

From CNN:

Death toll in London blasts at least 40, U.S. sources say, citing British
government as source.

My best to all of you.

moe

Good luck to y'all. Hope your loved ones are well. :(

Wow Harald.

Best to all of you.

Wasn't midwinter in London?

My heart goes out to all in London with the news of this terror. It is my prayer that the people of our world can come to a table of peace and learn to love each of our neighbors as ourselves.

May our world come to know peace and may the victoms of these attacks in London and their families be comforted.

With sorrow and extended love,

Fellowship

I'm alive, but very weirded out. I was at home when it all went off. Been receiving many messages asking if I'm OK. Everyone walking on the streets, no busses. Everyone on the phone, difficult to make calls.

Really angry, really sad.

My heart goes out to everyone at AI affected by this.

J

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Really angry, really sad. Speak of one of the devils. Nice to hear from ya, deary.

I'm glad to hear you London AI's are good. My heart goes out to you guys, your family and fellow countryman...

It was unfortunately, probably only a matter of time before something horrendous like this occured on English soil.

I thimk we here in the American west are going to be due a visit from these sons of bitches...

on another note i'm kinda shocked this could even happen, it makes me wonder why smaller attacks haven't happened here in the US since we are so much larger, could this mean a big event is being planned for the US? i suspect so

Weird coming from me, but can we chill on the blame-apportioning until, like, tomorrow? Everyone?

x

hassan good to hear your around. is it just me or has marcUK posted

anyway, yeah. my brother is on a plane to heathrow in several hourse time. he's supposed to start work on monday after waiting 10 weeks in australia to get his UK work visa stuff sorted out :err:

what a roller coaster for Brits, hang in there mateys

hassan btw. this moon cycle just over is the one in which the full moon coincided with the summer solstice. very rare according to lionel sims (once every few hundred years ? or was it thousand? can't find his email now :err: :\

2012 is the end of the mayan calendar thingy

i'm not getting all nostradamus on anyones ass, the thing is, i agree with most people. look, if we all blow ourselves up in a big World War 3 thing, or if aliens invade and wipe out all humans, whatever the fuck ever.

but...
this terrorism shit is just FUCKING ANNOYING AND FUCKS WITH YOUR MIND

stay calm, stay peaceful, say your mind, be yourself, condolences to all those harmed physically and psychologically.

.........

good to hear harald, hassan, alex and other AI'ers are all ok,

thanks to all who express love and companionship in this.

Hopefully we'll all remain calm, and whatever shred of Britishness is left in Britain, I hope to God, this is not a catalyst to start of the radicalisation of the British public into a doctrine of fear anger and revenge.

We must remember what it was like to be British, and not become equal to the evil that did this, in our attempt to come to terms with it.

MarcUK.

Originally posted by powermacG6
good to hear harald, hassan, alex and other AI'ers are all ok,

thanks to all who express love and companionship in this.

Hopefully we'll all remain calm, and whatever shred of Britishness is left in Britain, I hope to God, this is not a catalyst to start of the radicalisation of the British public into a doctrine of fear anger and revenge.

We must remember what it was like to be British, and not become equal to the evil that did this, in our attempt to come to terms with it.

MarcUK. Glad your fine.

Stay safe man.

Originally posted by Mac The Fork
Best wishes.

hey mac the fork :smokey:

I really don't think this a catalyst like you fear Marc, I work in a very multi-cultural, multi faith Primary school. We are not going to go backwards into them and us, revenge,demonisation etc. I liked the copper at the press conference saying that Islamic terrorists was a contradiction.

Originally posted by Alex London
I really don't think this a catalyst like you fear Marc, I work in a very multi-cultural, multi faith Primary school. We are not going to go backwards into them and us, revenge,demonisation etc. I liked the copper at the press conference saying that Islamic terrorists was a contradiction.

Alex I agree. He stood up for what was right. Islam does not = Terrorism. Terrorists are the seedy side of any sub-culture or religious schism. We must know this and eschew making gross generalizations

Perhaps the discussion of causes, responsibility, religion, social factors, etc. could be taken to the thread in PoliticalOutsider to leave this thread for news, well-wishing and other directly-related discussion. Might be better organised that way.

Midwinter is okay:
Recap
Posted by scott on July 7th, 2005 Posted in Around Here
So I got to the tube this morning at a little past 9:00 am and an announcement came over saying that there were severe delays and that the Piccadilly Line is, um, non-existant. So I popped over to the Circle/District lines to go over to Vitoria to take it up to Kings Cross. After standing there for a few minutes, packed in like sardines, the driver told us to get off the train, that all underground service had ben suspended.

So I popped out of the tube station with everyone else and stared at the bus map, which no one knew how to read.

I hopped the 49 bus to get up around Hyde Park, then got off to get on the 9 or 10 to go to Euston or Kings Cross, on the north end of town.

On the bus, everyone was talking about explosions in the tubes and, apparently, on a bus in Russell Square, which is near the British Library.

Then I learned I was on the rigth bus but going the wrong way. So I rode it to the junction, then grabbed the 9 going the right way. Then more sirens. Then people started talking about how you couldnt get into central London, and that the only way I would be able to get up near Kings Cross would be to go kind of around the center of town, by bus, and then walk in.

So I got off around Hyde Park, which is where that bus was making its premature termination.

More sirens. More police. Tons of people in the streets.

I walked down to a bus stop for 49, which goes almost to our front door, and walked home, where I found a note from her saying she was at the internet cafe. I figured she mustve seen something about the chaos on the news, and so I hoofed it down to the cafe, where I was greeted with a big hug.

And here I am. Blogging. Amidst what seems to be a series of co-ordinated terrorist attacks.

That is fantastic news. I am very happy that our London contingent here seems to be ok. Sadly, there are dozens of families out there who cannot say the same.

Sad and angry about sums it up.

Terrorists are assholes. Bastards are clearly trying to keep me from working in the British Library.

I was in transit while it was all going down, so all we heard were rumors and whatnot. I ended my attempt to find a bus route from Gloucester to Euston when I was told for the umteenth time that central London was closed.

And that Piccadilly line between Russel Sq. and King's Cross? That's the one I've been taking every day. Around that time.

Decided to sleep in a bit this morning.

My wife gets that tube to Russell Square three mornings a week, to work in part of the nearby Great Ormond Street Hospital. She is extremely freaked out.

My brother was on a train out of Liverpool Street Station, my flatmate on a train going to Liverpool Street that was stopped at Hackney Downs, three stops away.

They're totally cool, it's odd.

I'm happy to hear that the London AIers are OK. I'm still checking on friends in the area and so far everyone is safe. I hope the same is true for everyone here.

Harald, you and Hassan have spoken wisely and movingly today. Thankyou for your eloquence.

Condolences to the Londoners.
I am happy to see that our AI members living in London are in good shape.

I work at the British Medical Association where the bus bomb exploded. I was in a meeting at the front of the building. Adjacent to this room is a balcony that overlooks Woburn Place and Tavistock Square. When he heard the blast we all ran out onto the balcony and saw the bus with its roof ripped off.

There were survivors clambering over the seats of the top deck trying to escape and I particularly noticed one woman unconcious on the road curled up in a foetal position. I don't know what happened to her. There were clearly some dead people there.

The bus had been diverted down this street past BMA House because of the earlier bomb at Kings Cross. Because of this the many doctors in BMA house were able to provide treatment inside the building which became a triage centre. This may have saved people's lives.

It was a surreal and dreadful sight. I walked all the way home to north London and was still shaking when I got there. I have never been so glad to arrive home in my life. I dread to think of the friends and relatives of those people who won't be coming home

Good to hear all you guys are safe.

Watching events on TV as they unfolded much of the day... dreadful scenes, although an eerie sense of calm seems to pervade the people on the streets.
The emergency services seem to have done an excellent job in responding quickly and effectively.

My condolences to all who have been affected by this terrible act.

My brain hurts.

I've spoken to many of my friends in London today, all of them safe and well. I trust that we can all remain as objective about this as my friends and those on AI who have reported their experiences in the thick of it.

I don't feel any anger. I have, however, slipped back into the sadness that followed the 9/11 tragedy.

My best to all those affected, however remotely. I hope you can sleep well tonight. My thoughts, and those of my family, are with you.

Ian (ex-pat from Liverpool)

Why is anger a bad thing to feel when innocent people are slaughtered?

Because anger doesn't make you stronger.
It makes you blind!

Anger will tell you to blame the terrorists.

Logic should tell you to blame security services of England for not reventing such a massive undertaking.
If Tony Blair was a good leader he would, first of all, start an investigation as to why security services of the country are incompetent.

Originally posted by skatman
Because anger doesn't make you stronger.
It makes you blind!

Anger will tell you to blame the terrorists.

As would common sense

Originally posted by skatman

Logic should tell you to blame security services of England for not reventing such a massive undertaking.
If Tony Blair was a good leader he would, first of all, start an investigation as to why security services of the country are incompetent.
:no: Might you then blame the victims next?

Condolences to any affected by this.

Originally posted by johnq
"Righteous indignation" is an oxymoron. There is no virtuous anger...anger is defeat.

Anger caused today's violence.

Why do you want to give in to animalistic mob mentality? That solves nothing.

Easy for me to say? Sure. But we all have seen people want revenge and when they get it they feel like crap all the more. There is no "closure" with revenge, it's a lie.

Better to honor your dead and injured by keeping a cool head and letting the justice and democratic processes work, instead of resorting to lynchings and vengeful genocides.

Be better than your enemies. What don't you get about that?
Anger is a normal a natural reaction. Anger does not mean lynching. Anger does not mean vengence. Anger means you are human.

You are right, though, it is better let the process work. Mobs do not work. But, mobs are not representative of anger. Mobs generally represent hate. What is destructive is when anger turns to hatred.

I am always confused by people who feel that westeners are not allowed to feel anger. All other groups are excused for feeling anger. Odd.

Having said that, I fully understand people being too sad, stunned or numb to feel anything else, even anger.

Originally posted by Tulkas
Anger is a normal a natural reaction. Anger does not mean lynching. Anger does not mean vengence. Anger means you are human.

I'm only talking about acting upon one's all-too-natural anger. No one makes good decisions when angry, be it a person, group or nation. Ride the emotions out and take it all in and take some time to come up with more rational responses, ones that might avoid cyclical violence.

The world and humanity is still beautiful. This can't change that. Look at all the doctors and rescue personnel and people helping eachother. This event makes life even more precious, no? Clinging to the notion of safety or permanence - assuming everything will be fine forever, is what makes these events all the more shocking. We think "Oh, I guess world affairs can affect me afterall". We need to remember death is a possibility at any instant (from whatever cause), so treat people well at all times and don't put things off. Fight for those things you think will make a difference. Vote your conscience even if your guy/gal loses. etc.

Pessimism and anger...throw them out. Be constructive.

Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again I am at a loss.

I hate evil. I hate evil acts.

Hate is not in and of itself a bad thing.

A person can be both angry and hate the evil acts and still act in a rational way.

How do you know what to love if you don't know what you hate - and vise versa?

Hating "evil" is useless. If a man throws a rock at a dog, the dog will bark at the rock and not the man. The dog isn't seeing the true cause, only the superficial cause for his pain.

We need to "fight" and"kill" the underlying causes of evil, violent acts, which are powerlessness, greed, ignorance, poverty, disease, etc. Not the people living under these conditions, but the conditions themselves.

Hate is only a bad thing. It is a wallowing in a chemical reaction, a high from feeling abused by another. It is addictive and deceptive. It solves exactly nothing.

A person cannot be angry and still act in a rational way. That is the drug of hate talking, conning you into thinking it's ok. Like alcoholism's innocent whisper of "go ahead, what harm will having a few drinks do?"

You can repudiate evil acts with all your heart but it is with the wisdom of the superiority of reason and love, not with hate. Otherwise, you're the same as your enemies.

Originally posted by johnq
Hating "evil" is useless. If a man throws a rock at a dog, the dog will bark at the rock and not the man. The dog isn't seeing the true cause, only the superficial cause for his pain.

We need to "fight" and"kill" the underlying causes of evil, violent acts, which are powerlessness, greed, ignorance, poverty, disease, etc. Not the people living under these conditions, but the conditions themselves.



Never a truer word said.

A big hug to all those Londoner's who are dealing with this tragic event.

b.

You know what is still wonderful the next day?

I've spoken to not one -- not ONE -- person that is blindly angry about this. Not one person that feels fury or hatred. We're still sad ...

But we've won. We've beaten the terrorists already.

Any other reaction is weakness. Cowardice. You won't make me scared, you won't make me hate my fellow Londoners, you won't make me too angry, you won't make me thrash out.

EVERYONE at work feels like this. The estate agent I met this morning feels the same. The guys on the underground feel like this. The cops feel like this. Do you understand? The cops feel like this.

Yes I want to see justice. I want to see the people that did this in prison.
I don't people that *just don't get it* telling me how to feel or who or how to blame ...

But London just showed me how strength and humanity is built in to its DNA.

God / Allah / The Way / Whatever, thanks so much.

Originally posted by Harald
I've spoken to not one -- not ONE -- person that is blindly angry about this. Not one person that feels fury or hatred. We're still sad ...

But we've won. We've beaten the terrorists already. Indeed. (See if you can manage to restrain yourself this time, groverat, there's a good chap.)

The response by the British public has been noted here by the press and is receiving a great deal of praise and admiration. Also the emergency services for their rapid, no nonsense response. It's impressive and strangely comforting to hear someone directly caught up in these tragic events and clearly distressed and in shock, reply to the journalist who asked how he felt about the people who did this, with an immeasurable amount of dignity and one simple word.

Pity.

Originally posted by Harald
You know what is still wonderful the next day?

I've spoken to not one -- not ONE -- person that is blindly angry about this. Not one person that feels fury or hatred. We're still sad ...

But we've won. We've beaten the terrorists already.

Me neither. I want a t-shirt that says "I rode the tube. 8/7/05"

Originally posted by midwinter
Me neither. I want a t-shirt that says "I rode the tube. 8/7/05"

:)

English date format dd/mm/yyyy vs american format mm/dd/yyyyy...nothing significant on 7 August

My condolences to all those affected by this piece of human frailty.

http://www.werenotafraid.com/

[edit: it appears this site has gone down, too popular; just about all the U.K. papers published the address]

Lots of Italians posting.

My favourite http://www.werenotafraid.com/index.php?s=subkultur click on "Comment" or search "subkultur" :D

- T. I.

Originally posted by itsamac
English date format dd/mm/yyyy vs american format mm/dd/yyyyy...nothing significant on 7 August

Yeah... hence the ;)

I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend and neighbour Crusti, my thoughts are with you and all those who grieve. All the best to you and yours, Alex.

I have spoken to Kim, Phil's mum and although bleary eyed and obviously in pain with grief, she seemed ok. Last night close friends to their family were around, I heard talking and quite a lot of laughter as well as tears. As neighbors and friends we are in shock, but we will have nothing but smiles remembering his larger than life character. I am going to buy some flowers to put at the Elstree & Borehamwood Thameslink train station, so that others that knew Phil can give tributes.

I think that throughout this, the overwhelming feeling is of defiance. Yes there have been lives seriously damaged by this attack, but they have only made us stronger and they have gained nothing but to alienate themselves against Londoners and as Londoners, that means every race, colour and creed including the majority of Muslims that are respectable. Go hide you cowards and let the memory of Phil Beer's and all our freedom haunt you till your own unmissed graves.

Thank's to all your support, I will pass on the thoughts to his family.

Blimey! The BB house is at Elstree Studios, Borehamwood. The people in the house's families were checked to see that no one was involved. As this was the case they decided not to tell the housemates. ;) I am such a saddo, I'm bloodywell hooked on this trash :no: :lol:

More bombings?:?:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703777.stm

This is either amateur copycats, a good opportunity to get some info (this time the terrorists would still be alive) or a distraction from the real terror action that comes later today.

Originally posted by sunilraman
midwinter you back stateside now?

Yeah. As of this past Friday (the 15th, I believe).

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Detonator went off on a bus in Shoreditch, where my brother lives, about twenty minutes from my frigging house.

Apparently it went off in Columbia Road / Hackney Road, which is the heart of London's muslim quarter. Really weird.

Oof. I hope no one you know was affected. Sorry I missed you in London. I'm going to try to write a grant that'll get me in London for a couple of months next summer.

Said Hal to Gloucester during a war he's been tricked into waging by corrupt and self-interested priests.

Some timely advice, issued by the Brazilian Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

24-July-2005

To ensure that you don't fall victim to summary execution on the London Tube system, please consider the following important rules of behavior:

1) Never run

Even if you're late going to work, NEVER RUN to catch the subway -- only walk slowly (as Englishman Sting sang: "A gentleman will walk but never run.") It doesn't matter if you miss the subway and your Thatcherite/Blairite employer fires you. Your life is more important.

2) Light clothing

No matter how cold the British climate and the subway corridors, NEVER WEAR A COAT or other thick clothing, since that could look like you're hiding explosives on you. We recommend beach attire only. It doesn't matter if you catch the influenza and your Thatcherite/Blairite employer fires you. Your life is more important.

3) White skin

To avoid being confused with Islamists for "walking while black" (or brown), try to GET A WHITE SKIN -- not even a light suntan because that looks even more suspect (Middle-Eastern). For details, you may consult with Michael Jackson.

4) White neighborhood

Living in poor neighborhoods makes you suspect, given the high density of surveillance cameras that will track you on your way from home to the subway. TRY MOVING to a white rich neighborhood.

5) If they're after you

If some shadowy plain-clothes gang starts running at you, STRIP NAKED immediately to show that you're not hiding any explosives on your body. If they're muggers -- too bad, but your life is more important. Be ready to accept a full body-cavity search, because these professionals know that any asshole could hide a hand grenade.

Originally posted by sammi jo
2) Light clothing

No matter how cold the British climate and the subway corridors, NEVER WEAR A COAT or other thick clothing, since that could look like you're hiding explosives on you. We recommend beach attire only. It doesn't matter if you catch the influenza and your Thatcherite/Blairite employer fires you. Your life is more important.

It's been hot as hell in London for the past few weeks.

Maybe they should add don't break the law and keep your visa updated.

Originally posted by sammi jo
Some timely advice, issued by the Brazilian Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

24-July-2005

To ensure that you don't fall victim to summary execution on the London Tube system, please consider the following important rules of behavior:

1) Never run

Even if you're late going to work, NEVER RUN to catch the subway -- only walk slowly (as Englishman Sting sang: "A gentleman will walk but never run.") It doesn't matter if you miss the subway and your Thatcherite/Blairite employer fires you. Your life is more important.

2) Light clothing

No matter how cold the British climate and the subway corridors, NEVER WEAR A COAT or other thick clothing, since that could look like you're hiding explosives on you. We recommend beach attire only. It doesn't matter if you catch the influenza and your Thatcherite/Blairite employer fires you. Your life is more important.

3) White skin

To avoid being confused with Islamists for "walking while black" (or brown), try to GET A WHITE SKIN -- not even a light suntan because that looks even more suspect (Middle-Eastern). For details, you may consult with Michael Jackson.

4) White neighborhood

Living in poor neighborhoods makes you suspect, given the high density of surveillance cameras that will track you on your way from home to the subway. TRY MOVING to a white rich neighborhood.

5) If they're after you

If some shadowy plain-clothes gang starts running at you, STRIP NAKED immediately to show that you're not hiding any explosives on your body. If they're muggers -- too bad, but your life is more important. Be ready to accept a full body-cavity search, because these professionals know that any asshole could hide a hand grenade.

Originally posted by midwinter
It's been hot as hell in London for the past few weeks.

Hence the fact that the Brazilian man was wearing light clothing, that could never have concealed a 'suicide bomb', contrary to the heavy, bulky jacket bullshit issed by the UK authorities.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1537457,00.html

Originally posted by aplnub
Maybe they should add don't break the law and keep your visa updated.
Agreed about the Visa thing...but that was not why he was murdered. He was murdered because he was running to catch a train. Since when was running to catch a train against the law?

Originally posted by midwinter
That's what doesn't make any sense, either. Loads of people of all stripes and colors and clothing styles run to catch tube trains. I mean, hell, it's not as if London is all white people, although the BNP apparently has plans for that.

Why was this guy singled out?

And according to the Metropolitan Police, the man did NOT jump the barrier. Also, according the Guardian story, the alleged killer is "on leave", but still has not been identified. How convenient.

This looks as though Scotland Yard (and the UK Home Office) is covering up for some as of yet unknown third party, taking the heat for awhile, not identifying anyone, until the story gets old and the media drop the coverage. It is most probable that none of their guys had anything to do with it; the methods used here are most atypical of UK cops, even armed undercover officers. This man was held down, he was in custody, then he took 7 bullets in the head in quick succession. This looks like a pre-arranged, deliberate and clinical kill, more characteristic of a foreign intelligence hit squad., and not a case of bad policework. Whoever the killers are, instead of hitting an Islamic man, they messed up and got a Brazilian electrician instead.

BTW, who does targeted assassinations with the blessing of both the UK and US governments?

I shall stick my neck out and make a prediction: This story will disappear from the mainstream, and the real killers' identities will remain unknown. If Scotland Yard does eventually come up with names and faces, it will be necessary to hear from eyewitnesses who saw it all happen...to confirm or reject Scotland Yard's story.

Originally posted by midwinter
The tactic is unusual. The London police have been getting instructions from the Israelis on how to deal with this (headshots). Even Livingstone has defended the policy of shooting to kill.

Again, what I don't understand is what this guy did to get singled out. Was he followed? Was he pointed out? If he wasn't dressed strangely and was merely running to catch a tube train (which is a little odd, considering you usually don't have to wait more than a couple of minutes for one), how did he even get the attention of the police?

agreed, If he was followed from his home, they should have had plenty of time to intercept him before he arrived at the subway.

Originally posted by New
You are so quick with your conspiracy theories, sammi. Let's at least leave the most realistic alternatives open. I don't think the english media, or the world press, will let this story slip away.

well, if the 7 quick shots to the head is true, then it would seem that they were after someone that they had compelling evidence on, that they were going to bring this guy DOWN. either that or the police were playing too much counterstrike at the local net cafes and got really good at headshots :no:

the mistaken identity reasons will surface eventually. unfortunately, it won't bring this innocent brazilian dude back to life :(

Originally posted by sunilraman
well, if the 7 quick shots to the head is true, then it would seem that they were after someone that they had compelling evidence on, that they were going to bring this guy DOWN. either that or the police were playing too much counterstrike at the local net cafes and got really good at headshots :no:

the mistaken identity reasons will surface eventually. unfortunately, it won't bring this innocent brazilian dude back to life :(

Yeah, but I'm afraid that right now, with the information presented to me, I find it bad policing more likely than the grand israeli conspiracy.

Sammi seems to want to drag everything into a conspiracy theory cycle. As her first instinct. To me, who maybe shares many of her basic political views, this is kind of hard to swallow.

This seems to me to be a case of substituting good political analysis, with area 52 yada yada. It just hurts the discussion. When solid evidence is one the table, fine, let's discuss it. But In most cases, the most likely explanation happens to be true.

Originally posted by Powerdoc
The shoot for kill policy is wrong. I am glad that the french prime minister, said that he will not applie this policy.

"kill and then discuss" :no:

Is shoot first ask later really wrong?

It is a catch 22 (not a win-win) and I would rather they shoot first and ask later. The second they comtemplate shooting and someone does trigger a bomb, then shooting first makes sense.

As far as the FPM saying they won't, that is not a big surprise. However, I wonder how quickly (or at all) that policy would change if this was in Paris in the FPM's metro stop instead of London.

Originally posted by New
Yeah, but I'm afraid that right now, with the information presented to me, I find it bad policing more likely than the grand israeli conspiracy.

Sammi seems to want to drag everything into a conspiracy theory cycle. As her first instinct. To me, who maybe shares many of her basic political views, this is kind of hard to swallow.

This seems to me to be a case of substituting good political analysis, with area 52 yada yada. It just hurts the discussion. When solid evidence is one the table, fine, let's discuss it. But In most cases, the most likely explanation happens to be true.

I'm not sure why you are using that tired 'conspiracy theory' fall back. It seems to have become an almost Pavlovian response to anyone who doubts official, (but absurd) explanations. I have no problems with official stories that make sense...but here, there are problems. If something looks decidely unkosher, or makes little sense, or is improbable, or unlikely, or out of character, etc etc, then there is a good chance that another explanation is, at the very least, possible, or deserves air. It is a great shame that we are expected to toe the line and digest what we are told, by default, in a faith-based, rather than fact-based standpoint.

The "foreign intelligence" possibility is off-message, I grant you that: it would be most embarassing for the Blair administration if a 'foreign "anti-terrorist" squad' had screwed up and killed an innocent man in cold blood. But a "conspiracy theory", unfortunately, has connotations of "Elvis, UFOs, and the Weekly World News"..and to label something a C.T. has become a fashionable and highly effective tool to link distasteful explanations with "wackoism", and thereby trashing valid lines of inquiry, by inappropriate and often kneejerk-type association.

We always have to be aware that the national media have a history of always tending towards government lapdog status, rather than watchdog, certainly when it comes to 'heavy' types of issue, such as this. On the other hand, as regards trivia, personal scandal, sex, and fluff-stuff etc., the national media are watchdogs, especially here in the USA (and other western style democracies). I would far prefer this upside-down sense of priorities to be reversed...but that is way too much to ever expect.

Originally posted by aplnub
Is shoot first ask later really wrong? If I'd just had several bullets fired into my brain, I think one of my final thoughts would very likely be something along the lines of "Gee, this is really wrong." Possibly even "this is really, really wrong."

How about you? :)

On a more practical level, a live terrorist seems much better value to me than a dead one given perpetrating terrorist acts and maintaining a terrorist network relies on a high degree of secrecy in order to be successful. Using intelligence to uncover terrorist cells involves significantly less difficulty and risk, I would have thought, than trying to spot some guy with a bomb strapped to his body wandering around in a large city crowd.

What about the situation I described in the rest of my post you left out?

Originally posted by aplnub
Is shoot first ask later really wrong?

It is a catch 22 (not a win-win) and I would rather they shoot first and ask later. The second they comtemplate shooting and someone does trigger a bomb, then shooting first makes sense.


Yes, 7 bullets to the head woud suck and my last thought would probably be WTH is going on!!

Originally posted by crazychester
If I'd just had several bullets fired into my brain, I think one of my final thoughts would very likely be something along the lines of "Gee, this is really wrong." Possibly even "this is really, really wrong."

How about you? :)

On a more practical level, a live terrorist seems much better value to me than a dead one given perpetrating terrorist acts and maintaining a terrorist network relies on a high degree of secrecy in order to be successful. Using intelligence to uncover terrorist cells involves significantly less difficulty and risk, I would have thought, than trying to spot some guy with a bomb strapped to his body wandering around in a large city crowd.

Originally posted by sammi jo
I'm not sure why you are using that tired 'conspiracy theory' fall back. It seems to have become an almost Pavlovian response to anyone who doubts official, (but absurd) explanations. I have no problems with official stories that make sense...but here, there are problems. If something looks decidely unkosher, or makes little sense, or is improbable, or unlikely, or out of character, etc etc, then there is a good chance that another explanation is, at the very least, possible, or deserves air. It is a great shame that we are expected to toe the line and digest what we are told, by default, in a faith-based, rather than fact-based standpoint.

The "foreign intelligence" possibility is off-message, I grant you that: it would be most embarassing for the Blair administration if a 'foreign "anti-terrorist" squad' had screwed up and killed an innocent man in cold blood. But a "conspiracy theory", unf