Our man in Iraq - just like our old-man in Iraq?

Originally posted by Common Man
You can lead a nation to freedom and democracy, but you can't make it drink. As long as they are not a threat to us and they have good trade relationships with us, we can't tell them how to run their country. Do you have a link to those pictures?

But uh, they were never a threat to us.;)

Originally posted by Common Man
You can lead a nation to freedom and democracy, but you can't make it drink. As long as they are not a threat to us and they have good trade relationships with us, we can't tell them how to run their country. Do you have a link to those pictures?

If a nation was a horse and it was appropriate for other horse's 'owners' to beat the 'owner' of the horse-nation and steal the horse and set up a proxy 'owner' of the horse, then yes you can 'lead' a 'nation' to 'freedom' and 'democracy'.

You are about 100 years too late, boy. Take your yellow journalism speak back to the 1890's...

How do you force Freedom and democracy on a people who have no want for these ideals? Iraq will fall back into a quagmire of religeous extremist who will want a theocracy to force all into its thousand year way of islamic life and thinking. i predict that with open elections will come less and less freedom and eventually a theocracy will take hold. Islam doesnt teach turn the other cheek,love thy neighbor as yourself it teaches our way or jihad! Thats why these bastards have been killing each other since the time of Moses. Their fanatic religeon doesnt allow for liberal ideas such as democracy and freedom for all.

The action in Iraq was taken for two reasons:

1. To destroy the military and terroristic potential of Iraq harming Americans or their friends.

2. To secure the oil supply and put it in the hands of folks with whom me can do business.

As a side effect, the Iraqi people got rid of SH and now have an opportunity to create a better life for themselves. That is up to them.

Come Nov the American people will not care about this. As we celebrate the Bush victory we will here the murmur of the left rambling about "Bush misleading the people",but noone will pay them any attention .

The oil rich nations of the World are very wealthy places. Nothing will be stolen, it will be bought. This is what the left does not get. We are not stealing, we are BUYING.

Our ability to do business with SH eroded several years ago. I'm sure none of you leftists drive cars that burn gas of buy plastics or other things that come from oil.

Originally posted by Common Man
Our ability to do business with SH eroded several years ago. I'm sure none of you leftists drive cars that burn gas of buy plastics or other things that come from oil.

Wow, this post is amazingly similar in tone and context to one made by NaplesX the other day...

Anywho, you really didn't answer the question of "why did we have to invade?". We didn't. We could have supported an internal uprising. We could have waited SH out like we did with Mohamar Qudafy(sp). We could have made concerted efforts but we didn't. As soon as Rummy thought we had enough troops in Kuwait we stormed in. To heck with the UN inspections which were working as evidenced by the Kay report.

My final thought--sovereignty. If we can invade a country to put "business partners" into power what's stopping other countries from doing the same? All you right-wing nut bags never seem to ask this question and avoid answering it like the plague when posed.

I have always thought the oil was important.
1. US security
2. Secure the oil supply
3. Democracy for Iraq as a biproduct of 1 and 2

Whatever, they arent taught love thy neighbor from little kids they are taught to hate the jew, hate the american, and hate anyone who doesnt think like they do this is why they are still killing each other over tribal religeous crap while everyone in their society suffers. So Bush thinks we can force democracy on people who cant stomach different ideas and ways of thinking. This is 2004 and these idiots are doing the same thing they were doing in the first century. to busy killing and fighting each other for their stupid religeon to ever develope into a normal society. This is why here in America we have accomplished great things, we put aside difference,even embrace it. they do not. What has the Arabs accomplished? did any of those bastard nations rescue Kuwait? hell no it took Americans to do it. 200 billion down the drain and today we have the highest oil prices ever. way to go George.

Originally posted by Common Man
I have always thought the oil was important.
1. US security
2. Secure the oil supply
3. Democracy for Iraq as a biproduct of 1 and 2

1) The terrorist who attacked us is still roaming free.
2) Prices for oil are at all time high's because Iraq is unable to produce at its peak and terrorism concerns in Saudia Arabia helped drive these prices up. We've thrown 200 Billion into a country for oil.
3) You can't bring democracy it the tip of a bayonet

All and all your three reasons are failures. Once, twice, three strikes your out at the old ball park...

You guys are thinking SO SHORT TERM

Originally posted by Common Man
You guys are thinking SO SHORT TERM But really, you don't understand that you just very explicitly stated that we invaded another country in order to take what they have

Sure we need that stuff . . . . buut what you just said in good conscience, was similar to the justifications of tyranical thugs throughout history: "That land over there?! WE want it . . . now!"
or
"That World, we want it, we need it for our Country's future"
or even:
"That World, we want it, we need it for our Empire's future"
or even:
"That World, we want it, we need it for our Reich!!"

BTW: You are no Christian & that is for DAMN sure!

Originally posted by Common Man
You guys are thinking SO SHORT TERM

And just what exactly would you know about long term?;)

Just note the horrible design for that poster . . . . not only is it just plain badly designed it very obviously intendes to line Kerry up with OBL and Hussain . . . the way this non-stop insinuating smear campaign works is amazing! :no:

Originally posted by Aurora
Whatever, they arent taught love thy neighbor from little kids they are taught to hate the jew, hate the american, and hate anyone who doesnt think like they do this is why they are still killing each other over tribal religeous crap while everyone in their society suffers. So Bush thinks we can force democracy on people who cant stomach different ideas and ways of thinking. This is 2004 and these idiots are doing the same thing they were doing in the first century. to busy killing and fighting each other for their stupid religeon to ever develope into a normal society. This is why here in America we have accomplished great things, we put aside difference,even embrace it. they do not. What has the Arabs accomplished? did any of those bastard nations rescue Kuwait? hell no it took Americans to do it. 200 billion down the drain and today we have the highest oil prices ever. way to go George.
OK. And the reason you're counting out Islamic advances in the fields of mathematics, astronomy, architecture, literature and music - things you take for granted they're so important to your daily life - is..?

I'll come back to this this afternoon.

In the meantime, will a mod please check this guy's IP address because I think it's a member doubling himself.

Originally posted by Frank777
Not to be a pest Hassan, but I feel obligated to point out most of the terrific Arab contributions in the fields named above reached that level prior to the embrace of Islam in Arabia.

Since then, it's been a long, steady slide downhill.
Ah. You're quite right: I mean to say 'Arabic' rather than 'Islamic', which makes me look quite a twat. (I was in a hurry to go swimming.)

Originally posted by Frank777
Not to be a pest Hassan, but I feel obligated to point out most of the terrific Arab contributions in the fields named above reached that level prior to the embrace of Islam in Arabia.

Since then, it's been a long, steady slide downhill. This is so true, look at everyone of those fanatic countries...our biggest nightmare would be letting these fanatics get the bomb because under their sick beliefs they would use it. Islam has screwed those guys up pretty well. I dont think you can force democracy,they have to want it but their religeous dogma doesnt allow for other viewpoints, where true christianity accepts all and teaches tolerance Islam does not and so these guys are still killing everyone who thinks different hence the constant wars in the mid east. its hard to move forward when you spend all your time and resources killing each other. This is what makes America great. By getting along we have been able to accomplish things no other nation on this planet has.

I assumed that poster was a joke.

Originally posted by Common Man
I assumed that poster was a joke.

you're a joke.

Originally posted by Aurora
My meaning is today, true christianity teaches tolerance,love god and then each other as yourself. Jesus was a genius. Islam does not teach this philosophy in fact the opposite. kill the infidel,jihad and yadda yadda yadda. Im not a practicing christian by the way but just making a observation. Men have used religeon for countless wars and its sad.

Was the inqusition true Christianity?

Originally posted by Harald
Was the inqusition true Christianity?

The inquisition took place at a time when the state and the (officially recognized) Church operated almost as one two-headed monster.

There were just as many "fundamentalist" Christians executed as there were scientists and others who tried to put an end to the madness.

To Christianity's credit, those lessons were learned. Today you would be hardpressed to find a major Christian leader that wants the Church to be co-opted by the state again. (Note: This is not to say Christians shouldn't be able to be involved in political campaigns.) George Bush's "faith based initiatives" has worried many Evangelicals about what happens when the Government is paying bills for church-based humanitarian work.

Unfortunately, Islam never got the lesson and the adoption of Sharia Law is the ideal held up to the masses in mosques around the world.

They're even trying to implement it in Canada now, and our "tolerant" [read stupid] government is assisting in the "voluntary" implementation of muslim religious law.

Originally posted by Frank777
George W. Bush use Macs
Wrong, he uses a dull.

june 00:
ZD: Do you have a computer? How do you use it and the Internet?

GWB: I guess I'm not supposed to be talking about brands, but since Michael Dell is my good friend and Dell is a Texas company, I'm the owner of a Dell computer. I use it mainly for a couple of things. One, e-mail. I stay in touch with my family via e-mail. I've got a private address that I'd say maybe 50 people have with whom I communicate on a regular basis. I'm on my e-mail nearly every day. My mother and I were e-mailing the other day as a matter of fact. My father and I e-mail each other quite frequently. My brother Jeb, who is the governor of Florida, is a prolific e-mailer, and I hear from him quite often. I use the Internet for, well, I'm a rancher and I'm on a Web site that's got Doppler radar available at a touch, so I can see whether or not it's raining on my ranch. I know that sounds kind of weird, but nevertheless when you own the land and it's dry, it's interesting to watch weather patterns and whether or not they're going to affect my ranch.

I occasionally use it for research. Obviously in the campaign, which is a much broader issue, we use the Internet and the Web site to convince people to vote for me and to distribute information and speeches in both English and Spanish. It's an interesting tool for politics, but for me personally, it's a way to communicate with loved ones and close friends.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11-521678.html

Originally posted by giant
Wrong, he uses a dull.

My mistake. I mindlessly repeated something I'd seen elsewhere on the Net.

That is the most bizarre tirade I've read. You really shouldn't be throwing around words like "ignorant fool".

So it's the fault of the Ottoman Turks, British, French and U.S that the modern-day Arabian world is screwed up?

Your worldview is seriously messed up. I'm Canadian, and while America certainly has it's faults, it's citizens have every right to be proud of their country's accomplishments in the modern world.

It's all Jacob and Esau's fault.

Originally posted by Aurora
For Nightcrawler, an Xmen? im talking about the now not what happened 500 years ago. The mideast has very big problems and there is a common theme among those countries and its a religeon that springs up the Bin ladens, Hama's and all the others. again while they are fighting countless wars, here in America we have said ...hey we can acomplish much more working together then we can killing off each other over constant tribal warfare and religeous zealotry. Democracy isnt easy and has never come cheap but there isnt a better alternative and Democracy has to have tolerance and respect for other ideas and view points. Islam has not allowed for that. Govt should never be ran by any religeon but iam convinced that sooner or later Iraq will fall into this just as Iran.

Please, please try to write a bit more readable.

You are saying the americans would do so great, coming along with each other, while the middle-east-people don't come along with each other. That is pure bs.

The nice american governments were it that installed and financed murderous dictatorial regimes in the middle-east, the most famous dictator there was Saddam Hussein of Iraq! Yes, a CIA-coup back in the sixties was it that brought the Baath-regime to power, and a bit later CIA's friend Saddam Hussein to the top.

The USA even delivered Saddam Hussein's Iraq with WMD's in the form of chemical weapons, that he should use against Iran. Ah, the Iran-Iraq-war, a perfect example for the middle-east-people that can't get along, hmm? Guess again, it was the USA that instructed Saddam Hussein to invade Iran!! That nice USA, we should all praise and love it.

You are also making reference to Hamas as another example for the "not getting along-arabs". But you do realize that Hamas is a reaction to a murderous, expansive, land-stealing Israel, that was created with the help of the USA and is up until today supported with 3 billion dollars a year financially, not to forget the military support by the USA and the diplomatic support in the security-council..., I guess not.

Leaves Osama Bin Ladin as the example for the violent arabs. But you sure remember that the CIA/USA recruited Osama Bin Ladin and teached him guerillia-warfare and terrorism in order to fight the soviets in Afghanistan.

So what do we have, mostly US installed and US-supported dictatorships in the arabic world, an Israel, that was created with the help of the USA and which is supported by the USA since then, radical mujahideens, that were indoctrinated, recruited and trained by the USA to defeat the Soviet-Union.

I even don't have to bring up the preceding ottoman-oppression or the european colonialism to explain the current state of the arabic world, I can only stick to the US-control over the arabic world, if that is what you wish, my friend.

What then is the role of the religion in that scenario? Most of what happens and happened in the arabic world in the last fifty years stems from secular developments and governments. The different resistance groups use religion as main-motivator to resist the oppressive secular dictatorial regimes as religion is a great uniter and offers hope that goes beyond the individual's fate.

Nightcrawler

You make some valid points, we have a history of supporting democracies when it suites us and supporting ruthless scum like Saddam win it suites us. The enemy of your enemy is your friend kind of crap. CIA was involved with Bin Laden and was involved with Saddam. I still feel our biggest problem is our own Govt because as George has shown give these power mongers a chance to get rid of our rights and freedoms and they will. look at the patriot act, look at all the people held with excuse me why i puke no rights? wtf is this America or communist Russia? Power corrupts as this administration has shown with its false war,lies and spin. So called Homeland security and Mexico is wide open.
Back to the subject, will a democracy work in a country with religeous fanatics? I dont see it. Islam is not a tolerant religeon thats why christians have a hard time in any of those countries.If you cant turn the cheek and love your neighbor as yourself how are you going to allow for different ideas,ways of life and most important a free democracy? Islam breeds fanatics and the proof is in the news today in most of those countries, Sudan,Iraq,Iran........... they love killing innocents under the guise of their religeon. everyone of those countries have a common thing. their religeon.

Originally posted by Harald
Was the inqusition true Christianity?

Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!