New Car Pricing

[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>1. We have safety concerns with the minivans.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know...literally one minute of research would prove that your safety concerns are totally baseless. How about doing a little research buddy? Well, you get a free pass this one time.

<a href="http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0119.htm" target="_blank">GMC Envoy Safety Ratings</a>

<a href="http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0125.htm" target="_blank">Ford Explorer Safety Ratings</a>

<a href="http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97026.htm" target="_blank">Toyota Sienna Safety Ratings</a>

<a href="http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98024.htm" target="_blank">Honda Odyssey Safety Ratings</a>

And if you consider used...this got the best safety ratings on the block.

<a href="http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/95028.htm" target="_blank">Ford Windstar 1995 - 1998</a>

Here's a little tip for reading the charts:

Green = GOOD!
Yellow = Ok...
Orange = Feh
Red = MY SPINE OH F**K!

[ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</p>

the pathfinder is NOT small..
its a good vehicle & hassle free

wife & me drove from san diego -> edmonton
& back & it was a great ride (3 days each way)

fords have a pretty bad track record for
engine/transmision issues which is why
after looking around for 6 months we settled
on the pathfinder

you might want to look at gas mileage too
before plunking down a lot of money for an
suv.

Not to impune your tastes, but what's wrong with a car? So you have a collie, get a station wagon. Passat's are very nice, much better on the road than either of the vehicles you describe, better fuel economy, better ride, better looking, better car.

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>Satchmo, when does one ever resell a new car at a profit?

Lease, I'll never understand this... throwing away perfectly good money to use a car you end up paying too much for. NEVER lease, why oh why would you lease anything? Finance, loans, even if you don't have the money to purchase the car outright, why would you ever lease?</strong><hr></blockquote>

why buy something that depreciates in value? You're not throwing money away when you lease, you're paying for a vehicle that you can use everyday for that time period. Plus you're paying for the luxury of a brand new car with a full warranty and no hassle.

Why pay $700 a month for 5 years to own a BMW that will be out of warranty and worth a lot less when I'm done paying for it when I can lease it for $400 a month? After 3 years I just bring it back to the dealership and get a new one, with a NEW warranty.

Since you're leasing for a short term, you don't have to worry about maintenance and you're always in a nice new car. If you go the buying route, you'll probably save money in the long run but is it worth the hassle of maintenance?

Leasing isn't for everyone, but neither is buying.

Absolutely, positively do NOT buy a Windstar.
They are well known for having a myriad of problems. Just do an internet search.
I've known several people who've owned one and all had major problems.
Believe me, unless you are towing something significant, you don't need a ton of power. 275 hp is overkill for a grocery getter.
You can save significantly by buying a vehicle that is 2-3 years old, and that was just turned in from a lease. The depreciation on a new vehicle is absolutely ridiculous.
But hey, it's your money. :)

[quote]Originally posted by SQUSH:
<strong>It's a dog...never based you purchase soley on a dog for god sakes. I have 2 dogs and they have never been a deciding factor on which car I buy. Maybe rearrange your proceess of thinking, you'll end up with better choices. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I was going to suggest a visit to the vets (and perhaps an abortion clinic) but my common sense got the better of me. :D <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="embarrassed.gif" border="0">

I guess I am decidedly contrarian compared to this group. I only buy used cars. My last purchase was a 1993 Jeep Cherokee with tinted windows, tow package, cruise control, power windows, door and seats. It had 108,000 miles on it. It cost me $3300.

My brother, who is a mechanic by trade says that the specs on all the cars made today are much tighter than in decades past. Sort of like how a car from 1980 pollutes about 20 times more than a car made in 2000.

He tells me any car made in the 90's will easily go 200k miles with routine care. My other Jeep has 220k miles on it and still starts and runs easily. (1990 Cherokee)

I would say that cars are suffering from the same problems as computers. They are having to load them down with tons of add-on's to try to distinguish them from older models.

I know people will speak about mechanical issues, but the point is for $550 a month, I could purchase another Cherokee like mine every 6 months for the entire 5 years.

My 220k mile Jeep took us to San Francisco, Yellowstone, Salt Lake City, New York, Washington D.C. you name it. I put 8,000 miles on it in about 2 months when we were on vacation for 3.5 weeks.

The other thing about buying used like this is just the peace of mind. I could in my car tonight and drive however far I want, and for whatever reason I want.

The depreciation? That has already happened (Sure it might go down another $1500 before becoming a junker several years from now, but still...) The miles, no worries because I won't have to worry about the loan to value ratio in an accident or leases limiting the number of miles I drive.

Also I can get just about anything a dealer would offer just by being a little creative. For example in my new (for me) 1993 Cherokee I installed a $130 Jensen cd/radio that also plays MP3's. The largest cd I have made held 170 songs which it will randomly play if I so choose.

That is equivelent to a 15 disc cd changer in my book.

The used market is where I would go. You can drive carefree and make the mistake 10 times over and come out even. If you of course manage not to do that, you come out about $30000 ahead.

Nick

[ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>

You have a collie and a new baby and you need an Explorer? C'mon. Does the collie and the baby go to work with you?

Explorers are TERRIBLE vehicles. They are an intrinsically flawed design that Ford unleashed on the motoring public knowing it was flawed to replace an even worse design: the Bronco II. Most of the small truck-based SUV's have the same problem- tall, top-heavy and narrow tracked, with fat tires that are great for off- raoding but terrible for highway travel. They are, as a group, not as safe as automobiles, not required to pass the safety tests that autos have to pass, and not required to pass the emissions that cars are held to. And, unless you are willing to pay the big bucks for a Touareg or SRX, you'll be getting something that handles like a bus. If you really need alll wheel drive, get an Audi, a Volvo or a Subaru.

My brother in law just got an Envoy. It is a very nice vehicle. He bought it used, only a year old and paid less than 28k. That would be the way to go. Try to find a 1-2 year old one with low miles and let someone else take the depreciation hit.

My mom was looking to buy a new Mercedes last year, but the cost of the used car that she wanted was more than that of a new car. The new car was cheaper, but she would have had to wait for like 6-12 months for it to arrive. So, she got a BMW.

PS: My first post on the new message board :)

Originally posted by trumptman
The other thing about buying used like this is just the peace of mind. I could in my car tonight and drive however far I want, and for whatever reason I want.

Actually, that's what I don't like about used cars. How do you know you didn't buy somebody else's problem, but didn't know about? With a new car, at least you have the warranty.

I know you said you don't care for the subaru vehicles, but i can vouch for their reliabilty. I've had a Forester, Outback, and Legacy GT sedan, all 3 are very good cars.

I still have the Legacy GT, and it will be traded in down the road for another subaru. i guess it's a matter of whether you really need awd? I have a ford ranger too, and I'm kind of concerned about it's sloppy feeling transmission. They say it's fine each time i take it in, but it just doesn't feel right to me, and I've read the fords have transmission issues.

Originally posted by SQUSH
I know you said you don't care for the subaru vehicles, but i can vouch for their reliabilty. I've had a Forester, Outback, and Legacy GT sedan, all 3 are very good cars.

I still have the Legacy GT, and it will be traded in down the road for another subaru. i guess it's a matter of whether you really need awd? I have a ford ranger too, and I'm kind of concerned about it's sloppy feeling transmission. They say it's fine each time i take it in, but it just doesn't feel right to me, and I've read the fords have transmission issues.

I can also vouch for Subaru. I had a Brat that I drove through the entire Pacific Northwest as well as all through the second half of college. It was a great little car/truck/whatever you consider a Brat to be.

Nick

I only buy used cars and run them into the ground. My past few:

$500 for an 86 Honda accord that finally died on me (I crashed it) after 180K miles

$4500 for an 89 VW Jetta GSi that let me run it up to about 150K miles and I traded THAT in for a...

$9000 94 VW Passat VR6. I had almost 200K miles on it (mostly travelling back and forth between upstate NY and southern CT every weekend for 6 months) and I traded that in for, last year, a...

$16,000 99 Honda Accord. I'm giving this car to my wife who is selling her Saturn, and I'll have to settle for a, that's right, another used car.

This time I'm looking for a hoopdy in the $2K-3K range for strictly commuting to work. It's be a while before I get a new car... :(

Oh well, I have had my eye on a late 80s Golf GTi...

The only new vehicle I would consider buying brand-spanking-new is...

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/news/concept.car/vw.microbus/vw.microbus.rightside.500.jpg

Drool.

Originally posted by SDW2001
The Explorer is nice, but we'd need a V8 because it's six isn't powerful enough.
How's your driving style that you need a V8? I have Landrover Freelander with a 4 cylinder 2.0l Diesel (112 hp). With that car, I pulled the car of a coworker (ca. 1.5 t) for over 100 miles over a hilly Autobahn at about 55 mph - and I never had to use full throttle.

Originally posted by SDW2001
Brussell:

Thanks for the advice. One thing I disagree with: Financing. Here is why.

It is almost impossible to buy cash. That's a fact. Any decent used vehicle that is safe and will meet my needs will run at least 15K. No way I'm coming up with that while keeping savings for other things.

But lets say I spent $8000 on used car. Actually, the number doesn't even matter. Let's say I bought it and started saving for the next one. Now, a affordable car (cash) isn't going to last more than, say, 5 years in reality...perhaps less. So, let's assume I save $200 a month to buy another one later. That's $2400 a year. We'll subtract $800 per year in maintenence costs on that car since it would be much older. That's a net savings of $1600 a year. Multiply by 5 years until the next one, that's $8K for the new one down the road.

Here is the problem. Though it seems I wouldn't be making payments, I actually am. I am paying $200 a month. And guess what?...I am still driving a used car, probably 5 years old at that...and paying to do it. I'm just making payments to myself! You see, no matter what one does, there are still payments. The only question is are you going to pay to drive used and have questionable reliability, or pay (finance) to drive much newer and have a warranty.

Financing is not bad anymore when it comes to cars. Now, another thought about even buying a RECENT, financed used car.

Car: 2000 Dodge Caravan, 30K miles (basic options, no leather, etc)
Price with tax: 17,000
Warranty: Powertrain only
Financed amount: 15,000
Term: 48 months (not going 60 months on a used car!)
Rate: 5.9% (remember...it is used)
Payment: $352 a month.

Car: Honda Odessy, mostly loaded, new
Price with Tax: 30,000
Warranty: Full
Financed amount: 28000
Term: 60 months
Rate 0.9%
Payment: $477/mo

Now, obviously car #2 costs a lot more. The point? For $100 a month I can drive brand new, pretty loaded up vehicle with a full warranty and peace-of-mind as they say. Do I really want to pay $350 a month and not have a warranty...AND drive a 3 year old car? Not me. I'll pay the $100 a month.

Just food for thought.

Your abour halfway there with your thinking...perhaps we can get you the rest of the way there.:p

First your figures minimize a lot of things. You are still financing a used car or new car in your scenarios. The type of thing Brussell was mentioning and I mentioned is that you can get a used SUV or minivan with a little looking for likely under $5000 with under 100k miles.

Also you have to consider some other factors. In either scenario you must come up with $2000. (I am basing that on your financing figures) With my suggestion you only need come up with $3000 for the next 5-7 years. (15k miles a year typical driving)

However there are some serious factors you minimize. The car places ALWAYS get their money. The inexpensive financing has origination fees or often times you go in and they offer the that .09 for only 36 months and so you have to go with the 4-6% regular financing. Plus I don't know about your state but you also have to add sales tax in California. (private parties don't charge that)

Also I can't recall a single year in which I have spent $800 to repair my car!:wow:

Now I don't know your age, mine is 32 and if you grew up with the same experiences I did I can understand why you would think that about high mileage cars. The cars of the 70's were seriously working to get 100k miles. The 80's cars were terrible because they were basically 70's engines with all sorts of added on smog equipment. When this stuff would start to deteriorate it would get tremendously expensive.

However in the late 80's and beginning 90's America had finally gotten a clue and adopted Japanese style autodesign. The cars had redesigned engines, drivetrains etc. This improvement means that you will get 200k out of these cars and then the expensive repairs will finally start happening. The same mentality you use to take with a 100k mile car now applies to these 200k mile cars. Also certain things on cars fail because of miles driven, not because they are new or old. Most cars cough up an alternator periodically, say every 80-90k miles. Water pumps seem to go out about every 75-80k miles. These are $200-250 repairs if you know a good mechanic. Things like tires will wear out on a new or used car so the costs are just part of driving like gas.

So now the new math.

$2000 dollars down on both vehicles.

$3000 of costs spread over the remaining life of the car.(car cost)

$500 a year for oil changes, tire wear, small repairs

Say that you get 6 years out of the car and then it gets to 200k miles and finally has an expensive repair. That would be about 15-16k miles a year of driving.

That is $6000 worth of costs spread over 6 years. Less than $100 a month.

With your scenario 1 you have $16896 spent on purchasing the car (same $2000 down) and you still have the small repairs out of warranty (talking 6 years here) tire wear. Also you have more expensive insurance costs because you must carry not only full coverage but whatever amount of liability insurance the loan requires as well.

BTW, that was the less expensive scenario.

But think about that mentality, It's just a few hundred dollars. That few hundred dollars could pay off your home mortgage 15 years early and save you a hundred THOUSAND dollars. (Assuming say a 200k home) Those 15 extra years of mortgage payments instead of going to the bank can go to your retirement where if properly invested you can double your money every 7-8 years.

Then 100k becomes 400k over 15 years....

Or that extra money gives you the room you need to be a little riskier in some investments and get a real return, it allows you to buy and rent 2-3 houses without worrying what would happen if someone skipped a month of rent and you had to evict them... it changes a lot of things.

Sorry to have this drone on so long, but this being thrifty is sort of a hobby of mine. The little things serious add up. My income as a teacher is not nearly as substancial as some here make. It is only $57k a year. However my wife doesn't have to work at all and our net-worth is well over a quarter million dollars while owning over 800k of real estate.

You have to have your dollars working for you, and not for someone else. It isn't what you make but what you keep.

Example:
If your house is worth $200k and appreciates 5% this year, it will be worth $210k next year.

My properties worth are $800k will be worth $840k next year.

My net worth will have gone up $30k more than yours. Meanwhile you might be working a little extra here or there, sending the spouse off to work so that you can both give the maximum to your 401k's and have something to retire on... etc...in otherwords you will be working to make up that 30k gap instead of letting your money work

I know I am ranting, and generalizing, but those little things become big things over the long run. They can add up in your favor very quickly. That money could be what qualifies you for an investment property, it could be what starts a business, it can be a lot.

Ranting mode off...

:p

Nick

i think people make way to big of a deal about the buying / leasing thing. Some hate leasing, citing how after the lease is over you end up with nothing but paid a bunch of money.

All leasing is is paying the depreciation on that car over 3 or 5 years or whatever. It isn't some god-awful horrible idea, it's just a different way of doing things (probably good for those who always like to drive a new car). So, when looking at a lease, first figure the depreciation of the car, then compare that number to the total paid in the lease.

One other thing cost-wise- depending upon what state you live in, your vehicle registration costs can be much higher for a new car. That 5-year old Camry can be hundreds less a year to register in California than the 2003 model. Insurance is a lot less as well.

Then I think...what? Thirty-six thousand dollars? Where do I get off spending that kind of money? Where are my priorities...but wait, we do need a safe, reliable family vehicle that will suit our needs. AHHH! A five year loan with zero percent financing and about 10% down...that's like $550 a month! As my father said awhile back "a decent car now costs upwards of $30K".

Look I'm not the one wondering how people can spend $36,000 on a car to hold a kid and a dog. As you said yourself where are the priorties? People don't have them. They lease. They don't save toward retirement. They spend the equity in their homes. There are all sorts of crazy things they do. They stuff their kids into daycare. They forgo their vacations. They get laid off and have it repossessed. They justify working on weekends and holidays

It honestly looks like you have your mind made up and are looking for a justification. I assure you I would trust my 1993 Cherokee to drive me just as far as your brand new Explorer in terms of safety and a major trip. I took my other Cherokee to New York, Pennsylvania and Washington D.C. when it had 168k miles on it. I put 8,000 more on it that summer. It did cough up an alternator along the way which was replaced during dinner at a local garage.

As for what I would tell her if the car failed, that is what I keep triple AAA for at a massive $50 per year. That is the same answer I would have to give her if she got a flat, dead battery or ran out of gas in her new car or used car.

Now you asked me to tell what I tell her when the car broke down and I did.

So now you tell me, what do people tell their spouses when they HAVE to have that $550 for the next 5 years. Would I rather answer to a car breaking down like once every 3 years or would I rather tr to deal with this...

Look I would love to take Sat off for the family, but I can't...or I know that working the holidays is inconvenient but at least we can get ahead with time and a half...or I know one of us should stay home with our sick child but ...the bills...

I would rather deal with the car personally...

Nick

I noticed in the TV guide that there's a Law & Order all about SUV's now.

First of all, Trumptman's logic is terribly, terribly sound...if un-sexy. He'll be able to treat himself to a nifty car one day if his thriftiness hasn't become so rampant that he's eating dry catfood for lunch because it's just as healthy and cheaper to boot. He's building toward his future.

Having said that, I'm super close to making my ten year old (flooded) car my work vehicle and buying a new car. I'll buy new and drive it until the tires fall of it.

In regards to a good vehicle to consider in the class you've mentioned?
One with an equally good price?

Look at the Kia Sorento (http://www.kia.com/sorento/index.shtml) sport ute. General Motors owns a big chunk of that company and the price on this litle guy is SUPER spiffy. Lots of good reviews. I saw it at the Auto Show and a friend of mine who's looking to replace his Ford Explorer was drawn to the Sorento like a moth to a flame. He went all the way around the inside and outside of the models on display. I wasn't impressed by the gas mileage, but then none of the SUV's impresses me there. That's why I'm going with a car for my next vehicle.

fsck the engine. It's the rest of the car I'm worried about.

Check out the Honda Element. Really. I know it looks foolish. Its ugly.

Were getting one though!:D

Lets see what we fit in it, Three adults, one big bike, one 70 pound doggy. Very comfortable indeed.

Its really quite, gets decent mileage, it has an ausome sound system, and a place to plug in your iPod.(hell yeah)

Its advertised to 'sporty' people, but its really, nice even if you dont camp out in it, and have a need for waterproof seats, that can fold up against the wall or be taken entirely out :)

Way better than a Ford Explorer, ick

Why did you want one? :?: guess i hate all fords anyway.

I thought I hated all SUV's till I saw the Honda Element. 1 week till our green element arives! crist. . .i've been bought by this car

Originally posted by xionja
Check out the Honda Element. Really. I know it looks foolish. Its ugly.

Were getting one though!:D

Lets see what we fit in it, Three adults, one big bike, one 70 pound doggy. Very comfortable indeed.

Its really quite, gets decent mileage, it has an ausome sound system, and a place to plug in your iPod.(hell yeah)

Its advertised to 'sporty' people, but its really, nice even if you dont camp out in it, and have a need for waterproof seats, that can fold up against the wall or be taken entirely out :)

Way better than a Ford Explorer, ick

Why did you want one? :?: guess i hate all fords anyway.

I thought I hated all SUV's till I saw the Honda Element. 1 week till our green element arives! crist. . .i've been bought by this car

That Honda is gross. The reviews are mixed at best. It looks like a mutant postal truck.

I also can't believe you are killing the planet and supporting terrorists so you can take your dog somewhere with you. That Element will get about 22 mpg. You could have gotten a manuel transmission Civic and gotten up to 44 mpg with thoughtful driving.

:devil: :lol:
Nick

Originally posted by trumptman
That Honda is gross. The reviews are mixed at best. It looks like a mutant postal truck.

I also can't believe you are killing the planet and supporting terrorists so you can take your dog somewhere with you. That Element will get about 22 mpg. You could have gotten a manuel transmission Civic and gotten up to 44 mpg with thoughtful driving.

:devil: :lol:
Nick

I'm sorry:embarrass I am killing the planet. We WERE gonna get a hybrid, really, like a prius or a honda civic hybrid. In a way that would be cool. but. . . the element is so big. . .

I bike myself everywhere though, so i'm saving the planet, and not getting to enjoy the new car.

I still recomend the Element over the Explorer.

The cost was $240 a month...and you're driving a 5-10 year old car for that money. Plus, you had to come up with $7k in cash. That's money you could be putting to work for you. For a little more, you can have a brand new car with a warranty. And, are you considering the money that you have to save for the next one? See, you're still making payments...and driving an old car on top of it.

Now, SUVs: They are not as bad as they have been made out to be. many get nearly the same mileage as a minivan.

One more thing: The honda element looks like a turd with wheels.

What would Jesus drive?

SDW, you need to consider a station wagon. And do it seriously!!!

The Volvo XC 70 is a beautiful wagon that is higher off the ground compared to a normal car to give it a more SUV like stance and I believe (but don't quote me on this) that you can get the T5 engine in it, which is a superb and powerful engine.

My parents used to lease a Volvo V70 T5, and that was a beautiful car. They were thinking about buying it once the lease ran out, but instead they got the Saab 9-5 wagon.

The Saab 9-5 wagon is equally nice. Comes with a V-6 and its very fast. My mom drives the Saab 9-5 wagon still (2000 model), and although she doesn't have little kids to drive anymore (I'm 20 and the youngest), she does haul two big dogs around, and its perfect. The fact that it is lower to the ground makes it easier for her to get the dogs in and out of it. Not to mention that the Saab wagon has a very fast engine and EXCELLENT cornering (I love making u-turns in that car). I used it this past weekend to haul 50 bags of stone to put under her deck.

The Passat wagons are nice too, but I think the Volvos and Saabs are bigger. Definitely consider station wagons. They are actually pretty cool.

Here are some links:

Saab 9-5 Wagon (http://www.saabusa.com/main/US/en/model_intro_95w.xml)

Volvo XC 70 (http://new.volvocars.com/models/detail.asp?model=XC&method=ip)

Volvo V70 (http://new.volvocars.com/models/detail.asp?model=V70&method=ip)

Volvo V40 (http://new.volvocars.com/models/detail.asp?model=V40&method=ip)

VW Passat Wagon (http://www.vw.com/pwagon/index.htm)