Faith and Prayer in the US
I came across a story on the BBC website and the author notes the reality of those who have faith in God in America. I have to ask some questions. Does this author question the faith of many Americans? Does this author seek to pin the fact that President Bush has faith in God as a sort of "bad" thing? It has been well known that President Bush has been a man of faith even before he was elected. I tend to think the author takes issue with a strong man of faith being in the White House. I wish the author could realize that one does not drop their faith at the door when they walk into the White House or any other public place. I respect the right for all to practice their religion freely. Not in hiding, not in a way as to be fearful of the opinion of others.
We as a liberal society must allow for and respect the right of all to practice their religion. Period. Freedom and democracy are means that best provide for this to exist. I am proud that I live in a country that respects my right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and countless other freedoms. True maturity is the understanding that we all are different and while we may all have different backgrounds, culture and religious traditions we all must repect this freedom and individuality.
Your thoughts?
[quote]<strong>How different it is on this side of the Atlantic. The early settlers came here in part to practise their faiths as they saw fit.
Since then the right to trumpet your religious affiliations - loud and clear - has been part of the warp and weft of American life.
And I am not talking about the Bible Belt - or about the loopy folk who live in log cabins in Idaho and Oregon and worry that the government is poisoning their water.
I am talking about Mr and Mrs Average in Normaltown, USA.<hr></blockquote></strong>
As if to suggest that those who are not "Mr and Mrs Average are the only acceptable candidates for faithful people?
I am sorry that is not professional in the least.
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2850485.stm" target="_blank">BBC Link</a>
Respectfully Fellowship
[ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
[2332 byte] By [
Fellowship] at [2007-11-15 10:02:49]
# 1 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
little bit off topic. This is one of the major problems I have with BBC news. This same article in the US would either be in the op-ed section of the paper OR slapped with "news analysis" at the top. Now sure this one says "personal view" but it seems too often on the BBC site I see opinion or analysis inserted into a news article. Or dare I was masked within it?
[ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: Scott ]</p>
Scott at 2007-11-17 14:48:35 >
# 2 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Okay now that I've read it this guy comes off as a bit of a turd. For one it's hard to tell if he's exaggerating or not. This just strikes me as another case where we are different from them and they look down on us for it. So ... he can go to hell ;)
Just this week the UPS guy told me to have a "Blessed One". Not only did it not bother me at all but I told him to have one too.
Scott at 2007-11-17 14:49:35 >
# 3 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>little bit off topic. This is one of the major problems I have with BBC news. This same article in the US would either be in the op-ed section of the paper OE slapped with "news analysis" at the top. Now sure this one says "personal view" but it seems too often on the BBC site I see opinion or analysis inserted into a news article.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't get me wrong I support and respect the right of this author to express his point of view. I would simply suggest that he gives a window into a shallow broader view of how many who may not be Christian view faithful Christians. I think the quote I had of his in my opening post demonstrates a vast lack of understanding on behalf of the author. It is no crime for Mr or Mrs Average American to be a faithful Christian. It should not be shocking. I think it is sad that this man has a false idea of what the background of a faithful Christian is.
I would expect better of the BBC.
Fellowship
[ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
# 4 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
That reads like an 11th grader's angry blog entry.
What a useless addition to the BBC's front page.
# 5 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
The rest of the world may be completely wrong. The trolls here will no doubt argue that Americans are completely and divinly right about everything, thus proving my point. (I shall ignore there posts though - which is not to say that I will ignore the posts from the more rational and thoughtful Americans here).
***Everything that follows are broad, general statements. These are not to be taken personally.***
Most of the western world is scared that religion is such a huge presence in the US, in thought and action.
Most of the western world is scared that the US looks upon the world as black and white. Good and evil. Heaven and hell. Prayer and atheism.
The US was a haven for religions outside the norm. Lutherans, Puritans, etc. This is what most of the western world believes is responsable for this religious presence and black and white thinking in the US. I believe it. My own family immigrated to Australia as part of Pastor Kavel's flock in 1838, fleeing persecution by the Prussians (like many Americans).
Barto
Barto at 2007-11-17 14:52:37 >
# 6 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
I live in the Bible Belt and I don't believe in Jesus and I can safely say that this is a load of crap. It's amazing how people who don't live here know the nation's social workings better than those who do.
My argument is that this guy has no idea what he's talking about, not that Jesus rocks or that Americans are chosen by God to be the best in the world.
[quote]<strong>Most of the western world is scared that religion is such a huge presence in the US, in thought and action.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And what causes fear, children? That's right, ignorance.
[quote]<strong>Most of the western world is scared that the US looks upon the world as black and white. Good and evil. Heaven and hell. Prayer and atheism.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Isn't it ironic that they look at American the way they think America looks at the rest of the world?
Isn't it ironic... dont'cha think?
A little too ironic.
I firmly believe based on my experience in making things up that Australians all believe that kangaroos are deity and vegemite is the nectar of the Gods. I base this partly on my having known an Australian once and the musical stylings of Men At Work.
--
"If we say it enough we'll sound smart, I swear!"
# 7 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
This author may be a bit of an asshole but Bush claiming that god told him this war is just doesn't help either.
BR at 2007-11-17 14:54:45 >
# 8 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Groverat, you've missed the author's point, and my point, completely.
The rest of the world F'CKING KNOWS that America treats things as black and white. That's because everyone in the world is treated that way by them. Go live in Europe, Australia, Africa, Russia, China or wherever for a while.
The US tells other nations that they see things this way. The US doesn't discuss things with us, it TELLS us.
The relationships between other countries are totally different. They arn't black and white. But all the time the US govt. is TELLING Australia that they are right, without reasoning. Other powerful nations, such as China, also push Australia very hard like the US. But they don't TELL Australia to do anything. They tell Australia the complex reasons why they think something should happen.
-------
In short, this isn't about individual Americans. Which are generally regarded as the friendliest people on Earth. This is about America's attitude to the rest of the world, and how it is caused by the religious attitude of individual Americans. As someone living in American who has lived elsewhere, he has a perfectly legitimate viewpoint for this.
I may not be able to speak about what causes America to act the way it does towards other nations, but as someone living in another nation I can sure as hell say America acts terribly thoughtlessly.
Barto
Barto at 2007-11-17 14:55:37 >
# 9 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
[quote]I firmly believe based on my experience in making things up that Australians all believe that kangaroos are deity and vegemite is the nectar of the Gods. I base this partly on my having known an Australian once and the musical stylings of Men At Work.<hr></blockquote>
You American moron. Does your cultural ignorance know no bounds? If you would listen to the goddamn lyrics you would plainly see that the vegemite sandwiched was offered by a man in Brussels (who was six foot four and full of muscles) from whom the lead singer was buying bread. So clearly it is the Belgians or at least some guy in Brussels (who was six foot four and full of muscles) who eat vegemite. Although I'm not sure how they find time to eat vegemite with all the waffles that they have to eat but let us not get caught up in the details of Belgian cuisine.
Everyone knows that Australians only eat blooming onions at Outback Steakhouse. And that Foster's is Australian for beer.
# 10 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Pity you were too late for my "Funniest Poster" vote!
Barto
Barto at 2007-11-17 14:57:45 >
# 11 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
[quote]Originally posted by Barto:
<strong>The US tells other nations that they see things this way. The US doesn't discuss things with us, it TELLS us.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hear! Hear!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
[QB]We as a liberal society must allow for and respect the right of all to practice their religion. Period. Freedom and democracy are means that best provide for this to exist. I am proud that I live in a country that respects my right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and countless other freedoms. True maturity is the understanding that we all a
tonton at 2007-11-17 14:58:44 >
# 12 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
... and when we disagree it ...
1) Changes the name of food!
-- which is pathetic
2) Takes economic sanction!
-- which is dangerous
Harald at 2007-11-17 14:59:42 >
# 13 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
I thought it would make for an interesting ride to view what some of you had to say in reply to this thread.
Some of you are really over the top.
:cool: Fellows
# 14 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong> It has been well known that President Bush has been a man of faith even before he was elected.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How can you guys let stuff like this go? It is also well known that he was a drug addict, alcoholic, womanizing frat boy who showed little proficiency at other than being a rich boy's son.
Should I care about his prayer patterns? I think so. They have clearly influenced his thought process in the selection of possibly the single most inept diplomatic team ever assembled. Remember the republican line about Dubya being able to assemble the right people? From the illustrious alumni of Bob Jones school of grand wizardry? yep, that worked out well.
meh, I don't give shit, the man is so clearly a boob regardless of which fantasy of god he subscribes himself to, might as well be soething more innocuous, like American christianity, though that scarcely resembles what real Christianity.
Matsu at 2007-11-17 15:01:43 >
# 15 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
[quote]<strong>The rest of the world F'CKING KNOWS that America treats things as black and white. That's because everyone in the world is treated that way by them. Go live in Europe, Australia, Africa, Russia, China or wherever for a while.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And how does the American government's foriegn policy translate into the religious beliefs of the citizens of America?
[quote]<strong>The relationships between other countries are totally different. They arn't black and white. But all the time the US govt. is TELLING Australia that they are right, without reasoning. Other powerful nations, such as China, also push Australia very hard like the US. But they don't TELL Australia to do anything. They tell Australia the complex reasons why they think something should happen.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Say "no" and grab a kleenex. If you're so averse to the US grow a freaking sack and take up with France, they (oddly enough) seem like the only anti-American nation with enough nuts to take a stand.
This "they TELL us what to do without reasoning" stuff is just stupid. Could you please provide an example of the United States forcing your poor nation to do something against its will without reason? Please?
# 16 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
And how does the American government's foriegn policy translate into the religious beliefs of the citizens of America?
I didn't say it did. I said that's the way it is, and as a journo in America, the author is in a good position to figure out the cause of US foriegn policy, and has attempted to do so.
Say "no" and grab a kleenex. If you're so averse to the US grow a freaking sack and take up with France, they (oddly enough) seem like the only anti-American nation with enough nuts to take a stand.
This "they TELL us what to do without reasoning" stuff is just stupid. Could you please provide an example of the United States forcing your poor nation to do something against its will without reason? Please?
You don't have a clue do you, Mr. Evil Moderator? People like to be treated with civility. When one nations stops, people stop treating that nation with civility. Hence 11-9-01 (9-11-01 in US speak). There were other reasons for that event, but a lack of civility was one of them.
When the time comes that your technological dominance has waned, and the only thing seperating you from other nations is your lack of civility, the US will become a pariah state.
Barto
Barto at 2007-11-17 15:03:50 >
# 17 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Originally posted by Matsu
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong> It has been well known that President Bush has been a man of faith even before he was elected.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How can you guys let stuff like this go? It is also well known that he was a drug addict, alcoholic, womanizing frat boy who showed little proficiency at other than being a rich boy's son.
Should I care about his prayer patterns? I think so. They have clearly influenced his thought process in the selection of possibly the single most inept diplomatic team ever assembled. Remember the republican line about Dubya being able to assemble the right people? From the illustrious alumni of Bob Jones school of grand wizardry? yep, that worked out well.
meh, I don't give shit, the man is so clearly a boob regardless of which fantasy of god he subscribes himself to, might as well be soething more innocuous, like American christianity, though that scarcely resembles what real Christianity.
Isn't it funny how things like this can find two people usually on opposite sides ( Matsu and myself ) of the fence in total agreement?
jimmac at 2007-11-17 15:04:47 >
# 18 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Originally posted by BR
This author may be a bit of an asshole but Bush claiming that god told him this war is just doesn't help either.
When did Bush claim that and which of the two of you is the "asshole"? I can't tell.
Scott at 2007-11-17 15:05:56 >
# 19 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
The strength of faith, the type of beliefs and the willingness to talk publicly about it, of the average American, including the Bush administration, is considered freaky by the average European. This article seeks to inform those in Britain who perhaps haven't travelled to the States and so do not realise the extent of this cultural gap and build a minor thesis about America's actions on that.
The author obviously isn't religious but he states that clearly up front.
If the author was trying to make Bush look like a religous fruitcake in the eyes of Europeans then he could have done so easily because, as the author correctly points out, it simply isn't normal (in Europe) to talk about religion or be religious in that extrovert way.
In fact he goes out of his way to put Bush's faith in context which makes him seem less odd to europeans.
There really is no reason to overreact to this article as it is actually examining your culture to try and understand why you think what you do rather than simply condemning it from outside using the context of european ways of thinking.
# 20 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Just let you know that most Christians, Catholics and Jews are against this war.
Most churches are anti-war. (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/121/story_12190_1.html)
Most are praying for peace.
Praying for peace is fine. All religions could do that.
Praying for the people in Iraq is good, they are the one who are being 'seriously' affected.
Praying for the Troops is good, for they are sent to do something they rather not participate in.
But I don't think anyone, of any religion, need to support Bush who care about finishing his daddy business than the people he service (in US) or kill (in Iraq).
Bush is not a model Christian, bloodthirsty is not a Christian Trend.
Sundae at 2007-11-17 15:07:56 >
# 21 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Originally posted by groverat
[B]I live in the Bible Belt and I don't believe in Jesus and I can safely say that this is a load of crap. It's amazing how people who don't live here know the nation's social workings better than those who do.
It's amazing how you could miss the fact that the correspondent lives in the US while so thoroughly analyzing this 'load of crap'.
And since the article is talking about how the US is more religious than the UK/Europe that makes him, by your own criteria, far more qualified to judge as he has lived at least in the UK, Brussels and the US.
Finally, you live in an area widely known as 'The Bible Belt' and yet when someone, quite correctly, claims that the US is more serious about religion than Europe you lose it and go off on a xenophobic/ignorant rant about how no-one can comment on the US but Americans? How does that make sense?
# 22 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
>>True maturity is the understanding that we all are different and while we may all have different backgrounds, culture and religious traditions we all must repect this freedom and individuality.
Yes, absolutely. Private citizens are free to believe in anything they want, be it astrology, an allmighty god, flying pigs, whatever. However, I think that people who hold a public office should not promote those beliefs and assume that everyone shares them.
I certainly wouldn't want a president who made constant references to astrology, would you?
lolo at 2007-11-17 15:10:00 >
# 23 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
It's amazing how you could miss the fact that the correspondent lives in the US while so thoroughly analyzing this 'load of crap'.
He lives in Washington DC as a correspondant for a foreign media outlet and uses polls to back his points. I am in a much better position to make this evaluation. I don't believe in Jesus and I dislike Christian domination of politics (where it exists). However, I'm not dumb enough to imagine it being where it is not.
And since the article is talking about how the US is more religious than the UK/Europe that makes him, by your own criteria, far more qualified to judge as he has lived at least in the UK, Brussels and the US.
The article is about how US politics are supposedly dominated by religion.
The first line of the article: Our correspondent gives a personal view on the importance of faith and religious belief in American life.
You can't make the article what it is not, sorry.
Finally, you live in an area widely known as 'The Bible Belt' and yet when someone, quite correctly, claims that the US is more serious about religion than Europe you lose it and go off on a xenophobic/ignorant rant about how no-one can comment on the US but Americans? How does that make sense?
He can comment all he likes but I can also say he's full of crap (and he is). He can write 18 articles a day about how Christians are controlling everything in America, I'm not trying to stop him.
I'm just saying that he's dead wrong.
# 24 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
The author provides a window into the thinking of many in europe of Christian Americans. Sadly it demonstrates a lack of understanding. The tone of the story the author pens does not do much to advocate understanding but rather to ridicule.
Again, this is not professional
Fellowship
# 25 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
The author provides a window into the thinking of many in europe of Christian Americans. Sadly it demonstrates a lack of understanding. The tone of the story the author pens does not do much to advocate understanding but rather to ridicule.
Again, this is not professional
Fellowship
Everyone across the world needs to work on understanding instead of ridicule. Those that insist that god should be in the pledge and our motto need to learn to work on understanding. Those that blow up abortion clinics need to work on understanding. American Christians aren't so damn innocent.
BR at 2007-11-17 15:12:54 >
# 26 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
All I know is regardless of the President's faith, his faith should not enter his decision making.
I along with many others take offense to his constant godifying and moralising.
What about the separation of church and state?
There is definately an issue in that area.
# 27 Re: Faith and Prayer in the US
Originally posted by groverat
The article is about how US politics are supposedly dominated by religion.
The first line of the article: Our correspondent gives a personal view on the importance of faith and religious belief in American life.
You can't make the article what it is not, sorry.
That's funny because you're doing exactly that.
He talks about Tony Blair's strong faith, something that he only has to touch on as his audience already knows about it, and compares it with Bush's. Is he mocking Blair's faith too?
He talks about ordinary people including churchgoers in the UK and Brussels and compares them with American believers. Is he mocking the English churchgoers?
I've read articles by British journalists openly sneering at the Bush administration for being fundamentalists. This is not one of them.
