Microsoft got it right with Zune 2.0

Just wait until Apple lowers prices and adds more capacity to iPods in January. hehehe. If Microsoft were smart, they would have lower prices than the iPod so they would at least be able to survive one price war. Really, the future of Zune 2 will depend on what Apple does next with the iPod.

Backward-compatible just tells me there's no significant change in hardware for this generation. Wireless sync is a great feature...wonder how much battery life it eats up. No wireless purchases yet. Like an early Ford, you can get it in any color you want, as long as it's black ;-)

The new "Recorded television content to go" feature has some onerous requirements: Vista Home Premium or Vista Ultimate (and a TV tuner card). Visiting the Zune site, you'd hardly know there was a launch....

MS finally got rid of the 3-day restriction on "squirting"...is non-DRMd music still subject to the 3-play rule? Does the Zune store still use that goofy "points" system? Still can't use Zune with a Mac, right? Despite all their sneaky patent agreements, still no Zune for linux, right?

Overall, yawn.

Backward-compatible just tells me there's no significant change in hardware for this generation.

Guess what? There were no significant hardware changes between the 5.5 and 6G iPods either.

hopefully this Zune does well so we, the customers get a better deal.

That for me is the defining factor in the Zune 2.0 launch. Microsoft, possibly for the first time in history, seems to have made respect for the customer their number one priority. If you stripped out the names of the devices and companies and then compared the Zune launch to the most recent iPod launch you might easily think that Apple was Microsoft and Microsoft was Apple.

Yeah, it's no beauty queen. Still, 2.0 looks a lot better than 1.0.

I don't get all the whining about the design. It's ugly. The Zune 2.0 doesn't look bad nor very exciting but the same goes for the iPod Classic.

MS did indeed get it right. It's a very competent DAP. No we just have to wait for info about the battery. It should atleast have 20h battery time since that big screen is bound to drain the battery.

Overall it's the DAP I'm looking for. It's a perfect device between the Classic and the iTouch. Does the music thing well and has a screen big enough for small videos.

What's best about the video playback is that H.264 is supported. Perfect for watching all those iPod designed clips on the net. It has FM radio as well!!

Now I'm just waiting for a review. If the sound quality is good and the overall experience is positive you can bet that I'll be buying one. It's nice with some good DAPs so that you're not forced to buy an iPod everytime you're looking for something new.

^^
Oh yeah. The full metal casing is a big plus.

I don't get all the whining about the design.
'Cos when I show it to the "cool kids" they gonna lock me in the girls' bathroom!

I like the wireless sync, wouldn't mind doing a permanent car installation so my PC SYNCS AUTOMATICALLY WITH CAR PARKED IN GARAGE! Unfortunately, I dunn think anybody makes a HU compatible w the Zune.

Well if you think they look good then you deserve one :p

I didn't say "great", I said "good". I think that's a luke warm review at best.

Do we know for sure yet it's only for pc's? Honestly I don't think ms has anything to worry about for not making it compatible, macs don't have much of a market share. But still, if microsoft is going to take on the ipod they should make it possible for everyone to own a zune.

Overall, I have never liked the zune. Wireless synching would not be a dealbreaker for me, I just can't see that being a huge benefit especially if you have your player maxed out and you can't control what you sync right on the zune.

That entire "social" stuff is complete bull****. "welcome to the social" Too bad im the only one at the party with a zune. I know ONE person with a zune.

At least microsoft didn't hype the $#i+ out of this one.

Overall, I have never liked the zune. Wireless synching would not be a dealbreaker for me, I just can't see that being a huge benefit especially if you have your player maxed out and you can't control what you sync right on the zune.

I guess you want to keep on using cables forever then.

Wireless syncing is a big relief for many of us with multiple gadgets. The less cables plugged into computer the less clutter on the desk. Especially for people who move around their laptops from room to room and don't like having to drag to many cables with them. Wireless syncing will make it to iPods and other DAPs in the next 12 months thanks to MS.

One manufacturer does something, the others follow.

(p'bly no mini version of Vista ;-)

Being Mac-centric, I've got just about zero desire for a Zune. But it will be interesting to see how MS does this holiday season...a slightly new look on their "classic" model, a new mini-player (excuse me, two new mini-players, a 4GB and an 8GB; lol), and less buggy software. Somehow I don't think that the upcoming "social" site is going to be a big draw (no matter how many pictures of teenage Bill G get displayed on MS home page ;-).

word

If ms were to put a mini version of vista in the zune, by the time it would be released i would be reading about it on my touch screen nano 1tb with wi-fi. :D

I heard a rumor that everyone in those zune ads was originally holding an ipod and they used photoshop mac to put zunes in their hands. ;)

I didn't say "great", I said "good". I think that's a luke warm review at best.

Well that's not exactly what 'finally got it right' and 'hit it out of the park' mean to me, so thanks for clarifying :)

No I'm too stupid to understand anything that complicated, please humor me.

Code Monkey's right. The Mac represents less than 7% of the desktop PC market. With around 90% market share, Microsoft would be waisting money and effort making Zune compaitble woith the Mac. Microsoft only grudgingly offers their Office products on the Mac and with Bootcamp, they have even less motivation to do Zune on the Mac. It may happen some day but probably more as a publicity move and as a direct insult to Apple, not to satisfy customers or to make any significant amount of money.

Strange thread to be putting in the Future iPod forum, but there is a point I suppose: what will Apple do in response? Well, in response to... what? Wireless synching? Yeah that's a good feature, no doubt. I am 100% sure that Apple has considered it but not so sure if they'll include it in the near future.

I don't see the fuss as it's just another MP3 player that's not an iPod. It's not my business to say whether you should like it or not but it is what it is: just another gadget. The iPod is not just another gadget - it's a work of art. And those don't come around every day. That is partly why the iPod is such a success IMHO.

Apple won't rule the roost forever - that's a given. Even Queens Elizabeth and Victoria, as long as their respective reigns were, had to pass the crown to somebody else eventually. But it won't be MS who is going to dislodge it.

But it won't be MS who is going to dislodge it.That's not a bet I would make.

First off, you've got the lack of hardware manufacturers even in the game anymore. Creative keeps going backwards and forwards with their DAP designs because they can only stand hemmorrhaging money for so many consecutive quarters. If not for a decent Asian market and the padding they get from their sound card and speaker business, Creative would probably already be out of the North American and European market. iRiver has all but given up with only the Clix carrying a small torch after the mostly failed MTV promotion. Cowon doesn't even try to compete in these markets in spite of some decent players. Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, etc. all are players in a technical sense, but they can't even chart as far as market share is concerned. That leaves Sansa as the only real competitor other than MS for the North American market.

Second, and it's the real reason I'm not making that bet is that the only reason Apple has managed to get as big as they are is iTunes. If the iPod were just another drag and drop or Windows Media Player supported DAP, it wouldn't be doing any better than anyone else no matter how cute and pretty Apple styled them. If there's one thing Microsoft is willing to do, it's tool and retool software until it either beats or copies the competition. I don't think it's an accident they opted to give the Zune players their own software instead of WMP. They'll support WMP because they have to, but if there's going to be any break throughs for ease of library management, expect it in the Zune software first. Microsoft has the bank account and the software development experience (plus the ethically dubious tie in with their OS) to become real competitors to iTunes for player and library managment. *That* is something that Creative and Sony have shown themselves completely inept at, and the others simply aren't even interested in.

Albeit, if the Zune 2.0 requires Vista, they'll probably shoot themselves in the foot for this generation as well since there's absolutely nothing about a DAP that should require the bells and whistles of an OS most of us are probably still about a year away from adopting.

In the long run, it's probably only Microsoft that can afford to not be a success through multiple generations of their music players. They've got the resources to both stand the tests of the market, but also to keep retooling everything as many times as is necessary to achieve what the market is looking for no matter how good or bad the previous iteration was received. It may not topple Apple, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't put them in the number two spot within a few years.

Well, we'll see. The only hint of Vista goodness so far is a footnote (#3) ( http://www.zune.net:80/en-us/meetzune/holiday2007.htm):
[Recorded television content to go] "Requires a PC running Windows Vista Home Premium or Windows Vista Ultimate and an integrated or external TV tuner."

The Zune also came right with the screen, they did aglass screen, which means no stupid ruined screens, seriously how hard was that Apple?

If I had the choice between an 80GB Zune or an 80GB iPod I would probably pick the Zune, simply because of the nice big screen. It is a pitty they didn't add more features to the WiFi like a web broswer(it probably wouldn't be great but still nice to have it) and the ability to stream content from the computer. They should do some Xbox 360 features like what Sony did with the PS3 and the PSP.

As S2_mac says, we'll see. None of this will be out for a month at least - that's when we get to evaluate the product instead of the hype. I'm optimistic, but cautiously so - it wouldn't be unlike Microsoft to tie the newest stuff to the new OS.

Like I said the Zune 1.0 works with Media Center, XP and Vista. Therefore there is no reason why MS would make Zune 2.0 Vista only, since they would end up as the loosers.

Vista is only required is you want to seamlessly send recorded TV media to the Zune.

Zune 2.0 will support XP. Period!!

So? A key is made of metal. Metal is softer than glass. HOWEVER, lots of things in nature are harder than glass. Sand for example. Even a tiny grain of sand in a pocket or under a finger can scratch glass. We know this is the case because lots of people here on the board (myself included) have experienced scratched screens on iPod Touch and iPhone, even though we were being VERY careful with them. Don't let some test on the Web fool you. Real world evidence shows clearly that glass can and does scratch.
Suppose but keys are most likely are going to be in your pocket with the Zeun.

This is my take on the glass vs. plastic matter.

Glass is obviously more scratch resistant but can without a doubt still be scratched if you have keys or grainy bits of sand in your pocket. But overall glass is much resistant especially when in contact with a rough surface like sandpaper.

Plastic on the other hand is less scratch resistant BUT it all depends on what plastic it is. All manufacturers don't use the same composition of plastic, so the quality of plastic varies a lot.

I just don't see why apple does't use the same glass they use on their iPhone for their iPods, there must be something I'm missing.

Well, I don't really know. My Classic has invisibleSHIELD on it. My iPhone got one gnarly scratch before I put Crystal Film on it. My feeling though is that the Classic is easier to scratch by a long shot.

It may not topple Apple, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't put them in the number two spot within a few years.
In theory any company's lead is vulnerable. MS's lead in OSes, Apple's in MP3 players and so on. Having said that I would actually be surprised if MS overtook Apple in the timeframe you suggest - if at all. MS is not the only company who wants to 'win', nor is it the only company that is able to overtake competitors.

*sigh*

Still no Mac support...

Apple won't rule the roost forever - that's a given. Even Queens Elizabeth and Victoria, as long as their respective reigns were, had to pass the crown to somebody else eventually. But it won't be MS who is going to dislodge it.
That's not exactly the best analogy... after all. There wasn't a war that removed them from power, they died. The way a company dies is different than the way a person dies.

It was Apple's botched delivery that have earned them the widespread tarnish.

Yes and no. I agree that the execution of the software across the new iPod line has been incredibly problematic but there are other issues as well, not the least of which is the pathetic design effort spent on the Touch (clearly designed as an advertisement for iPhone and little more). Additionally, the fact that Zune software is compatible with the older 1.0 rev of the device is an important distinction between the two launches. While I take your overall point, I think that Apples mistakes run a lot deeper than simple software implementation and run into marketing philosophy, closed systems, lack of responsiveness to consumers and a number of other critical areas.

Compared to Apple's moves over the last three months, Microsoft hit it out of the park with Zune.
Meh, although I'm an ipod advocate, I was a dap advocate previously. There are daps out there that folks would choose over the ipod if not for the immense popularism that Apple ensures gets to the masses. But I'm sure you've been involved in that argument before.

A company that happens to be the rival of Apple releases a new product and the response is, "they hit it out of the park"?

Mmmm, not so much. Can't really admit to that...just as I can't admit to Apple hitting anything out of the park with their releases. Just cool gadgets that look pretty, new, and do what the customers when they want it. The nano was uber cool to me (a knockout, have you), but 2 weeks after release, we see what happened there. :rolleyes:

When the companies actually "get it right"--be it Apple or Microsoft--what would we buy next?

So why doesn't Apple use a glass screen for the classic iPod.

Plastic is probably cheaper.

You didn't read what I wrote carefully. They hit out of the park compared to the Apple launches and to the behavior of Apple over the last three months. The statement is relative, not absolute.
Glad you carefully wrote it! ;)

As someone else stated, we'll catch user reviews and see the responses then. A quick purview of other dap reviews from the Amazon website actually list higher/on par ratings then the ipod. So one could actually say that other companies have been hitting it out of the park more than Apple for the past couple of years. :cool:

Or that when it comes to DAPs, user reviews are generally worth about as much as the soiled toilet paper I flushed away earlier today :D

Forum comments taken collectively with a healthy dose of critical thinking, professional reviews from parties whose track record is known to you, etc. can be of use, but trusting user reviews for inanimate objects that get treated like gods and demons by so many are like looking for the virgin Mary in a cinnamon raisin muffin. Significant DAPs on Amazon and C-Net tend to have *at least* several dozen bipolar reviews before there's even a single review model in the hands of major newspapers and magazines.
Good thing we got the lounge. ;)

Nicely worded, kylo4. :)

I have to agree though, unless Apple really starts forgetting profits and starts giving people what they want, companies like Microsoft are going to start taking over.

I think the problem with the Zune battery life is that the Zune uses more powerful and expensive components than the Ipod Classic, but doesn't offer significant functionality increases because of it.

From what I understand the Zune processor is far more powerful than the Ipod classics, and the Wi-Fi chip is using non-trivial amounts of power. For this increase in cost and power usage the Zune only offers the ability to squirt music to another Zune user. If they actually used the WiFi for something useful like weather, news, or email, then it would be a far more appealing product imho. Full browsing would be painful with just a d-pad but there are many net-aware apps that could be really useful.

If there's a good reason instead of a cheaper battery, I'd assume it's more likely that it uses cheaper yet more powerful components. Like in laptops, it's much cheaper to buy a more powerful laptop with worse battery power: they stick a desktop processor in it, but you sacrifice cooler running temps and battery life for the cheaper, more powerful processor.

On the new ones it's actually a touch sensitive pad, so it wouldn't be any worse than surfing with a laptop, which is to say, it ought to be pretty good.

Well the battery in an 800mAH in Zune1 compared to the 850mAH battery in the Ipod Video 80, so it isn't the battery. You may be onto something as far as the cheaper components because MS isn't using custom hardware, they are using standard MCUs and wireless chips.

As far as web browsing, I imagine the bad part would be typing in the webpage with some sort of virtual keyboard, actual browsing probably wouldn't be too bad.

Good news. The Zune 2.0 support TV-out at the following resolution:

720x480 at 30fps
720x576 at 25fps

One more thing. Is it only me but has web browsing become very overrated lately? It would have been a nice bonus on the Zune or on the iPod Classic but doesn't matter much. After all you need to be within a WiFi network to use it. Very few people have access to free WiFi networks when they are on the move.

It's a feature which can't be taken advantage of every where you are. Therefor I find it a bit tiresome that some ignorant fanatics are almost dismissing every new DAP that doesn't support internet browsing.

The problem isn't that it doesn't support browsing, the problem is that it has WiFi support for no good reason. I could give a crap about squirting my music to people, I would rather have the extra battery life and reduced cost afforded by completely removing WiFi.

I can bet you that a lot more people have access to free WiFi networks than they do another person that owns a Zune. It would be very easy for MS to enable some sort of functionality that takes advantage of the WiFi chip in the Zune, and I'm not sure why they don't.

It seem like you haven't read the press release properly. The new high light of the WiFi function is the ability to sync wirelessly with a computer.

The reason they haven't added WiFi is because internet browsing isn't optimal on a small handheld media orientated device. Especially one which doesn't feature a touch screen or EDGE/3G.

I am aware of that and still, meh. My music library isn't going to change while im not sitting at the computer, and while I'm sitting at the computer its just as easy for me to plug in a USB cable as it is to turn WiFi on and press sync now on the Zune.

I can see automatic wirelesss syncing being useful for someone with a Zune docked in a room other than their PC room (the Zune has to get AC power to do automatic syncing) and hooked up to a TV or Stereo. This could make the Zune a cheap media center of sorts considering its tv output.

If you read my above posts I agreed that browsing the web isn't a great idea on a device like this without a keyboard. However, I think the Zune could implement webapps like weather and email pretty easily and add a pretty useful feature that seperates it from most of the competition.

I'm sure that many others embrace the idea of less cables to look for and connect to their computer.

I certainly do. Just waiting for wireless screens now - that would be a godsend.

"My library isn't going to change when I'm not sitting at my computer" is just an asinine thing to say. There are all sorts of situations in which one might want to sync remotely. For example: my library is over 55 gig. I sync the 100 least recently played songs to my iPhone. I've been away for a couple of days and now I want to refresh that playlist since I've listened to all 100 songs. If I could sync over Wi-Fi I could update that playlist from any hot spot in the world. Notice, and this is critical, that the songs I need on my iPod have changed WITHOUT any changes to my main iTunes library. That's just ONE of many similar examples.

I think you misunderstand what they mean by wireless sync. Wireless sync means that when your PC and your Zune are connected to the same wireless network you can sync your Library. It does not mean that you can sync your library halfway around to world with hotspot access. That would be a nightmare to implement.

As far as wireless vs. wired syncing I guess I am kind of old school, I tend to prefer reliable and fast connections to a clean desk. I definitely think that wireless sync is a feature that could be useful for many people, but I still feel like you could do so much more with a WiFi chip to seperate your player in a saturated market.

http://www.zune-online.com/news/zune/zune-gets-a-dvd-quality-tv-out.html

Zune just screwed over Apple some more.

As I kind of hinted at a couple posts back, this could make the Zune into a nice little media center with the Wireless sync. Just get the AV dock, sync movies and music over your WiFi network and sit back on your couch and chill.

Its too bad that the Zune30 won't support the DVD quality output since I have one on the way (woot has them factory refurbished for $105 shipped in full retail box, couldn't pass it up). It could be a nice substitute for my Xbox Media Center (XBMC on original Xbox) since I don't feel like buying a Wireless adapter for it, or running a 50 ft lan cable across our apartment.

Of course I disagree when you say that they screwed over Apple. They are making strong strides towards selling a competitive product, but even if the Zune s*** gold when you plugged it in, apple fanboys would still buy Ipods exclusively, and the rest of the market would follow for a while. MS might take a couple % marketshare with this iteration, but not much more. Of course thats what MS does best, they will slowly chip away at the market leader with each generation until they are truly competitive.

I'll admit Microsoft could have put a bit more effort into what they've done, but that doesn't leave much for future upgrades and thus kills off future markets for them. Apple has gone backwards, Microsoft are going forwards... for once.

I'm an Apple fan-boy and I think the Zunes are quite ugly, but I'm staying with my 5.5g because it's the best product by far either company has released. I'm sure this is the same for a lot of people.

Nope there are still plenty of room for improvement. Battery time can be be improved, screen resolution too, perhaps the thickness can be reduced a little in the future. Every single DAP on the market can be improved, none of them is perfect, the same goes for the iPod G5.5. But overall the Zune seem like complete music/semi-video device.

Apple has placed many people in a trance with the latest line up.

iPod classic: Plenty of memory but the screen is a bit small for watching videos.

iPod Touch: Gorgeous screen but memory is unsatisfying for both music, picture and video storage.

So with the new iPods is either big screen or big capacity. The Zune with it's 80GB and 3.2 inch screen falls right in between the two offering a very good compromise for us music fanatics who might want to watch clips and TV-shows at times.

If the Zune 2 turns out to be a success you can count on an all touch screen Zune phone/PDA similar to the iPhone. But for now MS are concentrating on creating the perfect high capacity music device.

Plastic is probably cheaper.

Maybe by a couple bucks, but a scratch resistant screen is very important.

No kidding. Apple's track record is clear. They don't give two ####s about scratch prone screens. In fact, they've fostered an entire economy of third party cases and protectors based on their crappy screens.

I think it's impossible to deny that the zune 80 is better value than the classic 80.

Yeah but unfortunately the iPod is so big right now pricing it the same as the 80 gb classic most people will pick the iPod up just because its more popular.

Drop the Zune2 price by $50, hope there is good word of mouth about the product and it just might sell. Probably won't compete with the iPod much right now, but the way apple has been handling things as of late they certainly have a chance.

Had Microsoft offered 160GB version I'd be all over it.

The Zune remains mostly unrealized potential. With its big screen and Windows Media Center integration, it should be one of the best video players out there. With its wi-fi, it should be able to download my favorite blogs every night for me to read (on that nice big screen) the next day. It should be able to get the latest news off of MSN every time it sees an active wi-fi.

Of course, if it was even half as popular as the iPod, someone would have done all this stuff on their own by now.

The fact that they've done so little with such a powerful platform still has me questioning Microsoft's commitment to the product. Yes, they have the money to keep selling them at a loss, but shareholders don't like unprofitable divisions hanging around indefinitely like that.

Not funny, specially when the new Zune 80 is black.

The Zune remains mostly unrealized potential. With its big screen and Windows Media Center integration, it should be one of the best video players out there. With its wi-fi, it should be able to download my favorite blogs every night for me to read (on that nice big screen) the next day. It should be able to get the latest news off of MSN every time it sees an active wi-fi.

Great ide. I never thought of that. The Zune 80 has a fabolous screen well suit for reading news in vertical format. MS listen to their customers so if we beg long enough we'll probably get the ability to sync MSN news to Zune in their near future.

They may look nice but MS is only making these things PC compatible. They will not work with Mac computers. This leaves out allot of people who will simply stick to the iPod that works with both Mac and PC. Oh and the iPods are available worldwide, Zune isn't.

name 3 people you know that have a mac.

are you guys serious the Zune still looks like crap.

name 3 people you know that have a mac.

Dude, don't even go there. I know about a dozen people that I work with (not socialize with particularly) who have become Mac users in the last year or so. There are enough out there where MS could make the effort at minimal cost and maybe find another market. Bottom line, they don't want to. The Zune division is already running at a loss and will be for the foreseeable future, what's a few more bucks to toss a bomb in Apples backyard?

Heck, if it's a brown Zune it could be a 5hit bomb...!

Let's see, in my 3D Modeling and Animation class of 20 people, at least 3 (other than myself) are Mac users, including one of the teachers. And another (not part of the three) has been waiting for Leopard for more than half a year before he gets his first Mac.

That's only 20%. 4 out of 20. Compared to the general population thats over 2x the normal amount. Apple's Q3 share this year is 6.3-8.1%. That's 1 in 12 people, so I don't think your Animation class is a good example.

Apple computers are becoming very popular, particularly among the same demographics that have made the iPod a hot seller. A recent survey by college survey company SurveyU found that Apple was the second-highest selling computer (next to Dell) in colleges. They also noted the sales were due in large part to the popularity of the iPod.

I agree with JMG - OSX support for the Zune would just be a lot of wasted manpower, because the people that buy Apple computers would nearly always refuse to buy a Zune.

To be honest, if it worked with a Mac, I'd buy one just to see. If it sucked I could always sell it on e-bay or Craigslist...

you cant compare arts class to society because you probably need mac for that class. not really, ha. linux is better for that kind of thing in my opinion. plus all the programs are FREE. i do not know anyone in my middle/high school that uses a mac, only because its impractical for normal use for most people, granted, most people dont know that they can use cedega or darwine, but most people wouldnt think that. i myself would rather have a mac right now in place of my powerhouse win/dreamlinux machine that can run CS:S at absolute highest graphics with no video lag at all at the same price or less than a mac with half the power.... but thats not the point, its a complete waste of time for ms to develop for mac, and i dont see how you couldnt get zune running under darwine, especially if it works under wine on my dreamlinux. and new zunes look real nice i must say...i might have to replace my turd zune with the sleek black one...

If you could please try and end your sentences with "..!!" or "..??" that would be the coolest form of deja vu ever. Thank you, have a nice day.

I would get a Zune, but Microsoft has failed to consider the screen resolution, which makes it a VERY sucky player.If you're going to spend an entire post drooling all over Apple, you might as well leave out the "I would get a Zune, but...".

The resolution argument is a red herring. These devices are all small enough that pixelation isn't a problem, and bigger is better. They're all at a resolution/size ratios much, much higher than what you'd get on most HDTVs. Screen area grows fast when the diagonal increases, so watching a 720x480 DVD at equivalent resolution/area ratio to the Zune would mean about a 4.6" screen. I'm guessing you watch DVDs on screens much larger than that, and don't complain about the "horrible resolution". Full 1080p resolution in an equivalent area would be a 6" screen, yet the smallest 1080i TV that Circuit City sells is 32" (100 times the screen area of the Zune)!

Resolution matters more when purpose of the device is displaying a webpage at a resolution so high that its barely visible (iPhone/touch).

If you want to complain about the clarity and black level, then you should have done that instead of going on about the resolution. There are just too many examples of how a 320x240 resolution looks fine in a 3.2" diagonal screen If you don't like the TV examples, consider this: a 15.1" laptop would have to be set to 1680x1260 to get that ratio - you call that horrible resolution? I'm guessing you don't sit several feet away from your laptop (of course, I didn't expect you'd sit several feet from a 4.6 to 6 inch television, also equivalent ratios for DVD & HDTV).

It sounds like the 1st gen Zunes didn't render graphics well, in your opinion. That seems plausible; I heard some reviewers say that album artwork that wasn't high resolution got pixelated because it was blown up so large on the screen. There's certainly more to it than resolution. It might be something to watch out for. Maybe the new ones do it better.

Ok, that is pretty hideouse...

You know what they say about opinions....

I like the color options. The back designs, not so much...