it shouldnt be too long until the zune wars begin...

Yeah, well I'm sure they will however (not knowing anything about the Zune to be honest) I imagine it will be one of the usual PMP's with way too many unnecessary features that have only been half thoughtout and developed...

However, I will have an open mind to any discussions about the Zune or other players for that matter because it's not always about Apple e.g. Surf Monkey Posted a link to the Archos S10 now that is a decent player ! - Remember more competition is only good news for us as the consumers :)

I imagine it will be one of the usual PMP's with way too many unnecessary features that have only been half thoughtout and developed...You do realise this describes every one of the new gen of iPods?

Here's coverflow... Oh yeah, we didn't finish optimising the code for loading the art AND we inexplicably ignored the Album Artist field AND we inexplicably failed to implement the group by compilations in any way just to exacerbate the problems...

Here's playlist folders on the iPod for the first time... Oh yeah, we forgot to actually write the 5 lines of code that would sort the playlists in them so they wind up in some quasi random order that doesn't even make sense to our programmers...

Here's the clock screen saver just like we put on our very well thought out iPhone... By the way, hope you didn't actually want it in 24Hr time because setting the preferences for time display doesn't actually do anytihing, 12Hr only, sorry. We also forgot that the reason it looks good on the iPhone is that it's combined with user selectable wall paper, yeah, we left that off so you get 12Hr time - only guaranteed correct if you live in North America, we forgot to check all of our GMT offsets - only on a blank background...

Here's nifty new games... sorry we didn't actually test them and it turns out that they, along with other as yet undiscovered bugs, wreck syncing play data back to iTunes so all you smartlist users will just have to wait until we figure out what we did. Classic owners should at least be glad they're not touch owners, at least smartlists work sometimes on the Classic...

And so on and so on...

I have no idea if the new Zune iteration will be good, bad, supreme, terrible, or just plain, "eh", but they would have to try to roll out something as sloppily as Apple did with this last generation of iPods.

You do realise this describes every one of the new gen of iPods?

Here's coverflow... Oh yeah, we didn't finish optimising the code for loading the art AND we inexplicably ignored the Album Artist field AND we inexplicably failed to implement the group by compilations in any way just to exacerbate the problems...

Here's playlist folders on the iPod for the first time... Oh yeah, we forgot to actually write the 5 lines of code that would sort the playlists in them so they wind up in some quasi random order that doesn't even make sense to our programmers...

Here's the clock screen saver just like we put on our very well thought out iPhone... By the way, hope you didn't actually want it in 24Hr time because setting the preferences for time display doesn't actually do anytihing, 12Hr only, sorry. We also forgot that the reason it looks good on the iPhone is that it's combined with user selectable wall paper, yeah, we left that off so you get 12Hr time - only guaranteed correct if you live in North America, we forgot to check all of our GMT offsets - only on a blank background...

Here's nifty new games... sorry we didn't actually test them and it turns out that they, along with other as yet undiscovered bugs, wreck syncing play data back to iTunes so all you smartlist users will just have to wait until we figure out what we did. Classic owners should at least be glad they're not touch owners, at least smartlists work sometimes on the Classic...

And so on and so on...

I have no idea if the new Zune iteration will be good, bad, supreme, terrible, or just plain, "eh", but they would have to try to roll out something as sloppily as Apple did with this last generation of iPods.
very good point. hopefully (i have my fingers crossed) apple will fix all these issues with a firmware update. i'm not too irritated by most of the glitches now, but i want them fixed. if they don't fix them soon, then i will deeply regret purchasing my iPod...

very good point. hopefully (i have my fingers crossed) apple will fix all these issues with a firmware update. i'm not too irritated by most of the glitches now, but i want them fixed. if they don't fix them soon, then i will deeply regret purchasing my iPod...

Apple's new slogan? "It's glitchy... but you won't be to irritated."

Apple's new slogan? "It's glitchy... but you won't be to irritated."
well, what i kinda meant to say is that i'm not irratated yet. right now, the bugs don't get to me too much, but if I will never be able to view my iPod photos full screen or be able to play a track with out it skipping ahead to the next one, then i will not be happy, because that says to me that apple does not care. i'm a very patient person. although i know i shouldn't, i'm going to give apple a chance to fix their mistakes. and no, i'm not giving it a second chance just because it's from apple. yes, they did have 2 years to perfect this, but the people making these things are still human, they can make mistakes just like we all do sometimes.

They still haven't released the Zune in Canada. If they did I'd probably get one since it plays aac.
what? :eek: where did you hear this from? how could the zune have aac support?

ohh, gotcha, i thought aac was apple's exclusive format, i didn't realize that they had additional drm for it, i thought it was exclusive so that the format itself was the drm. thanks for clearing that up for me, i feel like a bit more like an iPod noob again lol :)

ohh, gotcha, i thought aac was apple's exclusive format, i didn't realize that they had additional drm for it, i thought it was exclusive so that the format itself was the drm. thanks for clearing that up for me, i feel like a bit more like an iPod noob again lol :)Accidentally, intentionally, or something in between, your confusion is not uncommon due mainly to the way Apple marketed AAC in the early days of the iPod. Many people seem to be convinced of at least one of these two myths: AAC is all DRM protected and iPods only play AAC

However, in the same way that mp3 is short for the audio implementation of the mpeg layer 3 standard, AAC is the audio implementation of the mpeg layer 4 standard - it's quite literally just the successor to mp3 as far as standards go. In fact, before Apple began to aggressively associate themselves with it, dubbing it .m4a for unprotected files and .m4p for DRM protected files, it was just a .mp4 file extenion in the OS. However, unlike mp3, it doesn't have a bunch of potentially troublesme patents and trademarks associated with the underlying technology that make it both relatively expensive and difficult to license 100% in the clear.

Apple botched big time with the iPod Touch...Apple's left a very sour taste in my mouth. They're recent anti-consumer/hacker policies lately indicate Apple is really no different than Microsoft, or any other money-over-buyer-driven corporation. Apple has to gain consumer trust for my fanboy-ism, not cripple Touches, lock iPhones and charge restocking fees for defective items.

This time, I'm willing to give Zune a chance rather than quickly turning my nose up to it. Gotta do something with the money returned from the iPod Touch! If it gets a good review, I'll definitely pick one up.

Not sure how I feel personally, but if anyone is interested in seeing how "the social" has evolved, here's the pics:

http://foto.rompres.ro/index.php?i=1910000&q=zune

These look to be a better competitor than Zune 1.0, but they missed the boat by not competing with Apple in the one area they could easily win in...price. I think most people would buy an Ipod over the Zune when looking at identical specifications at the same price.

Also the Wi-Fi is still pointless, sharing music with people isn't that appealing, especially when there's nobody to share with. MS should really have included some limited web apps like email, weather, synchronized time, or better yet, they should have made it an open platform. The included apps could even be tied into MSN services giving them a win-win situation. They did this really well with Windows Mobile making it a much more flexible platform than the iPhone. Even with the current pricing I would get a Blackjack all over again because I can install any application I want (my current favorite is the NES emulator) without fear that an update will brick my phone.

One of the great things that MS is doing with the Zune is releasing an updated firmware for the original that will support all the features of the new Zunes. This means that wireless syncing, the new UI, podcast support (something they should have had from the start), and native support for mpeg and h.264 video (as opposed to having the software convert format before transfer) will be offered to current Zune owners. Not only that, most Zune accessories (obviously not cases) will be backwards compatible as well. This imho is a very nice move by MS to build customer loyalty (for the 5 people who have Zunes), and encourage new buyers that they won't be obsoleted with new releases of the player. Apple could learn something from this.

I actually have a 30GB Zune on the way because woot had them for $100 factory refurbished in retail package. I was planning on ebaying it for $50 more, but I think I will keep it now. It can play video (something I was banking on IpodLinux offering for my Nano Gen2 :(), and allows me to carry around all my music.

I'll still use my Nano for the gym though, and might even get a nike+ kit for it.

I wouldn't buy the new Zunes at their MSRP, but I have a feeling that they will be available for less, or MS will drop the price quickly. I don't think these will compete well with Apple, but they will probably steal market share from the likes of Sandisk and Creative to entrench MS firmly in second place.

From a user/consumer perspective I agree with you. From a business/selling more products perspective, it was dumb. All those Gen 1 Zune owners (all 5 of them) now have no real reason to buy a Gen 2 Zune since all of the new bells and whistles work with their Gen 1. That's not the way to generate more sales.

Well none of those features are enough for someone who already has a 30GB Zune to be motivated to get another one imho. Anyone who has a current Zune would only be looking at Zune2.0 if a) They wanted a small flash based player, or b) they wanted more storage capacity. In that case I feel they would be looking all their options and they might be more likely to go back to MS feeling that they wont leave them high and dry like certain other pmp manufacturers do when a new line is released.

I also feel like its good PR for a company that many seem to regard as the great Satan.

The new Zunes look alright, but I'm way too happy with my Touch and Nano to want one. The wireless syncing was a great idea but not enough to make me stray away from Apple. If they offered some sort of internet I think they would sell more.

Why even care about sales?Sales ensures the continued existence (and support) of the product. Sales drives the third-party accessory market. Sales does matter to potential consumers.

Microsoft has a good opportunity right now since there are quite a few Apple fans that aren't happy with the current generation of iPods. Microsoft has to market properly and keep on tweaking it until it becomes just as appealing visually as it is hardware wise to the iPod. I remind you that Sony and Nintendo fans laughed at the fact that Microsoft was making a gaming console. Well who's laughing now?

True, but in this case MS is very determined to infiltrate the PMP market and they can afford to keep losing money until they do so.At the moment, yes. That could change quite suddenly. This sort of thing happens quite often in business, particularly in the tech industry. JMG should know that. Just because they can afford to keep losing money doesn't mean they'll be willing to indefinitely.

Its one of the main reasons I don't seriously consider the Zune.

Unless you're crazy enough to buy Zune-DRM music, you'd have no more invested in the Zune than you do in any other DAP, including an iPod.Actually Microsoft announced that the Zune store would soon be DRM-free.

But anyway, the Zune isn't selling well, and their latest round isn't significantly unique or compelling enough to believe it will sell well. If they decide at some point that they've had enough, my chances of getting accessories will go from "difficult" to "nearly impossible".

If I was a big video fan, I'd probably take the leap anyway for that nice big screen.

Actually Microsoft announced that the Zune store would soon be DRM-free.And? That's not what I said at all, was it? I said if you buy Zune DRM, which is still available, that would be the only reason to care what sort of support MS offers in the long term. That's what I said, and is true.

Accessories? Please. What accessories, other than cases, are so proprietary that they don't at least have an aux input and are actually worth buying? In more than four years of iPod ownership the only non-case propietary accessories I've ever bought where an iHome (works just fine with every DAP out there due to an aux input), two pocket docks, and a couple of chargers for the home and car. Even my wife's FM transmitter is actually just a generic Sony transmitter, there's very little need for iPod or Zune specific accessories if you're smart about it.

I'm not saying whether any of us should be interested in the Zune, there are reasons why it probably won't live up to the 5.XGg/2G nano standards, but your stated reasoning is lacking. If you are one of these sorts who buys expensive integrated stereos and video devices, fine, I understand why the Zune or any other player for that matter, wouldn't interest you *now*, but to say you find it fine enough but you're worried about it's future support I find a non-issue. Apple has demonstrated with every generation that they're more than happy to break costly accessories, so you'd think with the spirit demonstrated with the Zune 1.0 to 2.0 transition you'd actually be more comfortable with a company like Microsoft as far as that issue is concerned.

Have you purchased a Zune?I'm not really sure what that question has to do with the subject. FWIW, no, perfectly happy with my 2G nano for now. Unlike a lot of people here, I have no love of any company, I just buy the best product for the job. Apple's current line up is definitely not it. Microsoft's may not be either, but I can discuss it without worrying about whether Steve Jobs' feelings are going to be hurt like so many around here.

I never said that was the only (or even main) reason I wouldn't buy a Zune right now, so there's no reason to bite my head off about it.

I've already experienced these compatibility issues with my daughter's Zen Vision:M. We had a hell of a time finding a case, and never really found one that worked completely right. We can use her Zen with my car player, but it only has an iPod-specific interface so we're reduced to playing on battery via the low-quality headphone out. Yet these are still not problems for my 4G iPod!

I speak of compatibility from the standpoint of someone who's been through it, not someone who owns the world's most popular player arguing that compatibility doesn't matter.

The point I'm making is *that* is the iPod as well. There aren't very many accessories for the iPod that have stood the test of time either.

Video and picture output accessories are broken. FM tuners & transmitters that took advantage of on screen controls are broken. Some "smart" chargers are broken. Games are broken. Camera accessories are broken. And that's just with the 5th to 6th gen. You could write a small book of the accessories and other products Apple's left in the garbage bin with each of their generational changes.

What we have in the iPod is a series of devices that are united by one good product, iTunes (which is why I'll never understand anybody who doesn't like iTunes buying one, but that's a different subject) and the fact that somebody printed the letters i-P-o-d in the product name. They don't share the same form factor, so cases are one shots. They don't share the same firmware base, so anything that utilises anything other than audio is hardly guaranteed to work between generations. Available connections have been changed multiple times, and so on.

Apple is either greedy or incompetent to break their old features for 3rd party accessories. I would hardly believe they were incompetent if it weren't for the fact that all v1 of their products are buggy. Now I don't know what to think.

I don't get how "the current iPods don't work with some older iPod accessories" is a selling point for the Zune. Its guaranteed not to work with any older iPod accessories!

It's not a selling point, but another reason to believe apple isn't really looking out for the consumers either.

Sorry I'm not buying what you're selling. You're talking 3rd party accessories that fail to be manufactured well and don't work. When an ipod changes, the accessories I've got with each ipod continue to work with the next generation. The only accessory that didn't was my Griffin remote. But we can all still charge our mini, 4G, 5.5G Video with the same charger & sync with the same USB cable. And tape connectors, fm transmitters all still work through the different generations of our ipods. As do our iBalls, docks & stereo cables.

The ipod has already outlasted the *2 year wonder*, so until you put your money where your mouth is, I don't wish to continue bickering about something we cannot predict the future of. I'd rather hear from someone who's actually used one, and gives us a real feel of what it's like.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/07/apples-new-ipods-dont-play-nice-with-last-gen-video-accessorie/

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/apple-locks-tv-out-in-new-ipods-breaks-video-add-ons/

What bdb was initially expressing, and seems to be overlooked, is if the Zune stops being manufactured altogether, then he would be unable to buy any accessories, even vital ones to work the DAP. Not all the bells & whistles a lot of people, myself included, don't use.It's not being overlooked, it's being dismissed as a non-point. I can still buy firewire cables for the iPod and it's been two years since Apple shipped an iPod that supported it for more than charging from legacy products. I just checked and you can still find accessories for the Rio Karma that hasn't been manufactured in about three years and by a company that hasn't manufactured any DAPs at all in over two.

Microsoft is currently the 4th DAP maker, and has been as high as 3rd in the past year, and that's *just* with one model. If you can still find accessories for a manufacturer who went out of business as a DAP maker in the much smaller market of 2005, something tells me finding a Zune cable during any reasonable lifespan for the product will not be an issue.

Heck, to really blow this out of the water, I just checked and you can still buy replacement joysticks for the Coleco Vision that hasn't been manufactured in two decades. It's a safe bet that as long as there is someone using a given consumer item, somebody will be selling you the parts to keep it running. To even pretend for the sake of devil's advocate that a company as large as Microsoft would allow the Zune to not only be discontinued but completely unusable within in any realistic time frame for someone to care is w-e-a-k.

It's not being overlooked, it's being dismissed as a non-point. I can still buy firewire cables for the iPod and it's been two years since Apple shipped an iPod that supported it for more than charging from legacy products. I just checked and you can still find accessories for the Rio Karma that hasn't been manufactured in about three years and by a company that hasn't manufactured any DAPs at all in over two.

Microsoft is currently the 4th DAP maker, and has been as high as 3rd in the past year, and that's *just* with one model. If you can still find accessories for a manufacturer who went out of business as a DAP maker in the much smaller market of 2005, something tells me finding a Zune cable during any reasonable lifespan for the product will not be an issue.

Heck, to really blow this out of the water, I just checked and you can still buy replacement joysticks for the Coleco Vision that hasn't been manufactured in two decades. It's a safe bet that as long as there is someone using a given consumer item, somebody will be selling you the parts to keep it running. To even pretend for the sake of devil's advocate that a company as large as Microsoft would allow the Zune to not only be discontinued but completely unusable within in any realistic time frame for someone to care is w-e-a-k.

Fair enough, if you feel like searching around for discontinued accessories, that's your prerogative, but being in Australia where we are lucky to find accessories while they are current, let alone discontinued, maybe I have a different outlook. And each is allowed their own opinion on such things, and if they view it as a selling feature or not, it is also their choice. It's not something you can talk people in & out of if they are set in their ways. I value my time, so I'd rather walk into a store and have choice, something I can pick up, look at, and decide, rather then spending time searching and ordering online, in some cases, not really knowing if it's exactly what I want/need.

I've been burned before, buying PDAs that weren't supported by the larger chains, then not supported at all, and after spending 2 to 3x the cost of the item in shipping alone to get a $10 cable, well I gave that kind of thinking away. It could be weak point in the States, but here in Australia, it's not such a weak point. It's often the case the item isn't even stocked here to begin with, such as the Zune. Hell even Gateway pulled out of Australia and we lost support. :confused:

But now onto Jesse, I must admit I only read the link JMG offered. As I mentioned I don't have the 6G, and don't even use the feature now, so I plead ignorance in this department. I know you're the expert on such things.

Time? It took me about a minute total to verify that those things existed for three separate discontinued products, and with the exception of the joysticks, they weren't discontinued products, but currently manufactured accessories for discontinued products. I could have ordered them all in about 5 minutes if I were in the market.

Maybe it really is different in Australia, but at least in the U.S., finding accessories for old stuff is generally not much of an issue. As a thoroughly crazy example, I knew a guy who was a total geek about this stuff, collected all kinds of things. He was even able to find the recording wire from somewhere for a wire recorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_recorder) he found and fixed up - that was a 60+ year old device. It wasn't easy, but it was doable.

Add to your time, finding out whether they ship outside the U.S, most times not, and if they do, how much they are going to charge, usually some outrageous price. Plus, as I have already mentioned, I prefer to touch, feel what I'm about to buy. You won't talk me out of this no matter how hard you try. Being in small business makes you value time, a lot. Been there, done that with the U.S. websites, and don't feel like doing it over again, and won't have to. ;)

Actually it wasn't me that said that initially. If you read back, I only mentioned difficulty in getting accessories on this page, and I've included the touching & feeling. Now you're getting slightly picky.

Heh, allow me to quote you from not even a page up: Sure sounds to me like an issue of a cable being a make or break argument against the Zune (since you were the one to clarify someone else's point in this way ;)).

Face it, you inherently don't want a Zune, that's fine, but your *reasoning* behind it isn't solid. If you'd said you didn't want a Zune because it was Microsoft and you dont' feel like supporting Microsoft, I'd have never said a thing. It was because you two were arguing against the Zune based on a fallacious platform: future support for accessories. It's not an issue. The bells and whistles exist today, so if you really cared about some sort of speaker dock or flashy case, you can get them from some reputable manufacturers right now and for at least the next year. If you hadn't bought that sort of bell & whistle by then, you weren't really all that concerned about it anyhow. If you were concerned about basic accessories like chargers and cables, those are going to be available indefinitely. Again, it's not an issue in the way it was argued.

It's very easy to prove your point when you cut a persons post off. Include the full quote, as I clearly was reiterating bdb's position, and had not at that stage included my personal feelings on the subject of trying to find discontinued accessories. When I did, you will see I included the 'touch & feel'. :shake:

Too late to not support Microsoft. We own 4 notebooks, all XP, and 6 PCs 5XP, 1 buggy Vista, not an Apple product in sight, besides our ipods. I have nothing against the Zune. I have a problem with lack of support for products in Australia. If something is well supported, and I see a growth, Apple mini stores are popping up everywhere in the large department stores, then I feel more satisfied.

Maybe Code Monkey has never dealt with it, or he doesn't mind the frustration. Everyone has their priorities, I guess. I don't see any minds changing here.No, I'm trying to figure out how, with a straight face, you suggest that the number 3 or 4 DAP manufacturer in the sea of dozens of DAP makers (and Microsoft on top of that) is so unpopular that you would be unable to find accessories for it. It's a bogus argument on the face of it. Even if Microsoft never grew their market share beyond single digits, it's still represents millions of units sold each year. Basic accessories aren't going anywhere and nobody has yet to suggest some "gotta have it" non-basic accessory that would actually figure into your choices. If you don't want one, fine, but as J. Judy put it, don't pee on my boot and try and tell me it's raining :D

No, I'm trying to figure out how, with a straight face, you suggest that the number 3 or 4 DAP manufacturer in the sea of dozens of DAP makers (and Microsoft on top of that) is so unpopular that you would be unable to find accessories for it.I said it would be difficult and frustrating, not completely impossible. Hypothetically, if the Zune used a standard connector like the Rio (rather than the proprietary one it has in reality), it should actually be quite easy to find cables years from now. But it doesn't, so I guess the Rio was a bad example (you could have pointed that out, rather than tout it as a relevant example).

I've backed up what I've said with real-world experiences finding parts for unpopular products, in response to your hypotheticals. Some examples were specific to an MP3 player that wasn't even discontinued or as unpopular as the Zune! Have you even seen how few choices there are for the Zune?

It really has nothing to do with whether I want one or not, or liking Apple or disliking Microsoft. When I replace my 4G, I'll be looking at a few companies and making a list of pros and cons just like I did when I bought it in the first place. I didn't just mindlessly buy the iPod then, and I won't now. The Zune will be on that list, too.

If you read my post correctly JMG, you would see your links don't apply to me. I don't have a classic, so I am not experiencing the video out problem with some docks. While I don't condone that style of marketing, by blocking 3rd party docks, all genuine docks appear to still work, so your point? What bdb was initially expressing, and seems to be overlooked, is if the Zune stops being manufactured altogether, then he would be unable to buy any accessories, even vital ones to work the DAP. Not all the bells & whistles a lot of people, myself included, don't use.

The same could be applied to the 1g Ipod since their accessories were rendered useless by newer ipods. That's not the point. The point is you are trying to say that potential lack of availability of accessories for the Zune is a reason for not getting it because it may be discontinued. With that reasoning in mind, the iPod 1G has been discontinued and since it's accessories are not compatible with the 5g or 6g, then you are in the same boat concerning accessories concerning the Zune as well. So really, your argument doesn't hold up.

Like someone else pointed out, all genuine docks do not work, even those licensed by apple and promised to work with the ipod. For the sake of this argument, I'm not saying if that is "right" or "wrong", but you cannot give apple a pass and at the same time criticize the Zune for having the same potential scenario.

If you think its hard to find parts for an old iPod, how easy do you think it'll be finding parts for the fourth-selling player of 2001.I'll give you the pass an figure you meant to write 2007 ;) That said, I'll bet the fourth selling player of 2007 represents more units than the number one player in 2001 when the 1G was out by a wide margin.

Now, to move this onward, anyone actually try the Zune software? I did today, and that was a disappointment. Microsoft had better have something *really* good in store with their November update or they won't be making any inroads against Apple even with somebody who has gotten as grumpy as I have with their latest lineup. The basic look and library navigation was very good, I give them props for coming up with something that doesn't mimic the iTunes look but makes it, I'd bet with a bit of practice, every bit as easy to find and view your stuff with even some rather nifty innovations for displaying the media visually.

On the other hand, there are some quirks I found in just my short experimentation: If you have an album of mixed filetypes, e.g. mp3 & m4a, it displays the tracks of each filetype as separate albums. This could be repaired by dragging one album onto the other to "merge" them, but given that it's clearly a tag based library, it made no sense.
Although it displays album art just fine from .m4a tracks, it cannot display album art embedded in mp3s, go figure. In the grand scheme of thing, that's pretty minor as it's trivial to create folder.jpgs with most tagging software, but it's odd all the same that they'd have embedded album art support for the "enemy" .m4a but not the ubiquitous .mp3.
The only form of library *file* management is at the rip level. It's marginally better than Apple's implementation in that you are given the option to determine the file mask for track names, but you're still forced to go with a default Artist/Album/Tracks organisation. You can then set the rip folder to the same as your library and there is a setting to keep the rip folder organised according the file mask, but I wouldn't recommend this:
Try as I might, I couldn't get it to actually arrange already added media properly. It would not simply do it and there was no "consolidate library" feature like with iTunes. I found that dragging tracks to another displayed album to merge triggered the move/rename, but not without problems. I had VBR mp3s that had their tags corrupted with one album (I did all of this experimentation on a copied subset of my music, I'm not an idiot).
You can rate songs and it seems to use the id3 tag field instead of Apple's database method. However, you can't actually do anything with the ratings beyond sort columns by it.
Speaking of sorting by columns, although there are a lot of options for columns to display like in iTunes, unlike in iTunes, you cannot view some of them under certain display panels/options and it makes no sense to this monkey.
Lots of odd tagging options, but nothing to do with them. If you can't make smartlists, do you really care if you've labeled a song "groovy" or "happy" in a mood tag? Maybe there's something on the Zune itself that lets you take advantage of these, but I found nothing in the software itself to make them more than a waste of time.
No ability to group edit comments, minor, but a PIA if you want to do it.

Then there are some things that are notably absent, at least for now: No podcast support at all. I know this one is supposed to be addressed in the November update, but how could they have launched without it?
No smartlist support of any kind (eeek!) - if that's not in the November update I know what I couldn't live with ;).
No useful features like skipping while shuffling or bookmarking for non-music files.

All in all, disappointing. It's better than WMP, it's better than Creative's software in a lot of ways, but it's not even on the same continent as iTunes for media management, and that's what Microsoft is going to have to change if they plan on getting anywhere. Even if the players good, without the ability to manage a library well, it's not going to matter.

If people feel they're better off going with a 3rd party option like Media Monkey or J.River Mediacenter, then they can probably do better for players as well. Somebody needs to realise the great truth of the iPod: the proprietary bells and whistles software-player integration can bring (e.g. bookmarking, automatic podcasts, smartlists), are what will really make people love your product. Just being able to sync music and listen to it is not enough to stand out or even necessarily survive.

... but the thing that irked me the most was the fact that it uploaded all of my iTunes songs (and my sisters from her separate user named XP account) but separated songs that had guest artists which really annoyed me.That's just Microsoft being helpful ;). WMP tries to do the same thing the first time you use it on a new OS install if you let it. I just cancelled, deleted everything it had already added, then specifically added the folder I wanted it to work with. I'd read enough about it mucking with tags to not trust it with anything actually in my iTunes library directory. Since it only tries do do this global search and add once, I can live that. I don't like it, but I have learned that with the odd exception of something like iTunes or Foobar, every media manager I've worked with thinks I want it to index everything on every attached hard drive, CD, and flash drive for some reason. It's so awesome to find 2000 5 second "tracks" that are the sound effects in a video game mixed in with your actual music :D

iTunes gets people in the mindset of seeing their music as a "library". Not everyone manages music that way. I just drag 'n drop with iTunes, our Zen is drag 'n drop, and our UMS flash players are of course drag 'n drop. If people have never used iTunes, the Zune software's lacking library management really might not be a big issue.That's true, but it's also what will stop you from ever getting anywhere in this market. EVERYBODY's player, from the cheap Chinese DAP you got off of eBay for $99 to some crazy $600+ imported Cowon will let you manage music like a guy managing goods in a warehouse and simply play them back. If all you can do is play music, you're just a glorified CD changer.

Well, for the record I came to the iPod via iTunes, as I suspect many people did in the arlier days, particularly among non-Mac users...I have to wonder if this is still the typical situation, this. I suspect most newbs would just go out and buy an iPod (mainly because "its an iPod"), then of course they pretty much have to get iTunes to use it. This is the case with every iPod owner I know personally.

Of course, a lot of people will get an iPod, load iTunes, then love the combination. I don't know how many times I've heard that "iPod+iTunes integration" is this awesome thing that somehow I just never experienced. I can't think of any reason why people who've never used either will have experienced it either, though. But I'm pretty sure I'll be told I'm wrong again. ;)

Really the thing that concerns me with software is just its ability to transfer songs and create playlists - the simple stuff - effectively. I don't know how many times I've had problems with WMP & iRiver software doing this. Its really frustrating when that crashes (as I was reminded when reading about similar experiences with the new Classics).

BTW, has anyone seen the new Zune2 interface? From the short video (here (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/122927.asp)), it looks pretty impressive. I'll be looking forward to seeing one in real life. I think it might be better for long lists. Of course, I'll never really know, since every demo unit will have like three songs on it. Its like test-driving a car in a parking lot, hoping to guess how well it'll handle on winding highways.

Interesting read on the Zune software. Thanks for sharing a very well detailed review of it CM. I've never been a huge fan of WMP.

I'm exactly like Jesse. I like everything organised, extremely organised, and used iTunes first. Then I purchased my iPod. The one thing I fear though, as their range expands, is it becomes a bloated mess for the average iPod user like me. I'm not expecting to get an iPhone (even if they are ever available here or not), or a Touch, although that is not 100% out of the cards. I'd need much more memory before I'd consider it though. So if it becomes bloated with applications for devices I won't use, I'd hate to see that.

But I think you're probably right too bdb. I think a lot of the younger generation, not all, but a large majority, just mindlessly buy an iPod without iTunes being their reason.

One of the things I love about the Zune is the physical interface. The ipod is elegant in design with a minimalistic approach, but the wheel is pretty much obsolete imho. Scrolling in the ipod requires an awkward circular motion. THe zune only requires to hold or tap a button down or right. I honestly think apple needs to do the brave thing and admit it's clickwheel is outdated and change it to a directional pad. I know a lot of apple fans will not like this, as the clickwheel has been a defining characteristic of the iPod since the beginning, but honestly, spend a day on a directional pad and you will see that it's more efficient, faster, and easier to work with.

The interesting thing about the new Zune interface is it looks like you can scroll circularly too, if you want.

I noticed that too in hand-on interface video. The major feature that has led to the iPod's success is the click wheel and has set the device appart from it's competitors.

When I bought an iPod Mini and used the click wheel for the first time there was nothing else for me after that. I have a huge library and being able to quickly and effortlessly change song is dead important. The click wheel did the job and as my library out grew the 4GB mini capasity I bought an iPod Photo.

So for the latest 6 years the iPod has been the interface king until now when someone, namely MS, has managed to match the click wheel in efficiency. I have yet to try the new Zune 80 but having watched the video clip the navigation experience seem superb. The touch pad is a combination of the click wheel and the touch scroll on the Zen M:Vision.

What's a bit disspointing with Apple is that they haven't improved or enhanced the interface for the Nano or Classic. The new split screen interface is IMO a waste. It slows down the navigation and eats up space which could have been used for larger text. Sure it's nice with a clean interface but I just think that the screen could be utilised much better.

When I get to buy a Zune 80 off eBay next months it will be interesting to test the software. I've read all over the net that Sonic Stage and Zune software suck, but are they really that bad? My only wish is that the Zune software is easy to use and sort songs just as good as iTunes. That's all that matters to me.

The Zune 2 control is quite innovative. A combination of a D-pad and a scroll/touch pad.

I tried the iPhone two weeks ago and the interface was dead cool, very quick and efficient. But it has a big drawback. For doing quick actions like skipping a track or pausing the iPhone requires attention which is a pain in the ###. Imagine trying to skip two track with an iPhone during a cold winter. You have to take it out of your pocket, take of your right glove, wake up the screen and all that, put on your glove and put the device back in your pocket.

With my iPod photo I could simply toggle the hold switch and skip track without having to take the device out of my jacket.

With that being said a touch screen and tactile cutton combination is best. What I want to see is the home button doubling as a play/paus button when the "now playing" screen is visible. Plus |<< and >>| buttons on either sides of it. Plus a tacticle hold switch on the iTouch.

That would make the iPhone and iTouch much more managable on a day to day basis.

Zune battery capasity announced!!

Zune 4GB and Zune 8GB
Audio: up to 24 hours
Video: up to 4 hours

Zune 80
Audio: up to 30 hours
Video: up to 4 hours

Source: Zuneinsider

Very impressive battery capasity which match the iPod Classic without a problem. Bare in mind that the Zune is also lighter than the Classic. MS seem to have put in a lot of effort into this and what's missing now is a huge marketing budged and the iPod Classic and Touch will face a decline in sales the coming 6 months.*in the US off course*

One thing that isn't certain is whether the Zune skip will be tactile.

It's tactile.

I'm getting the Zune 80 and Zune 8 also so I'll let you know how it goes ;) Let me guess...you'll post a link to an article on Zunescene.com, raving about the new Zune?

Actually I'll be looking for unbiased reviews. People with websites dedicated to a device typically gloss over the devices shortcomings, similar to how you gloss over the Zune's shortcomings in your iPod/Zune comparison.

The failure rate of these new iPods is so high I think a lot will consider the Zune. This could be "Zune's big boom."

Any word that these are coming out in Canada?

I think the Zune 1 was almost like a trial product. They wanted to see how it would be received and not lose as much money (by releasing it worldwide) to see if there was enough interest to rock the house with a second generation.

We're in North America, they could at least throw us a bone here, we do supply lumber and oil do we not?

Your user name is "zunescene" and you were posting veiled links to zunescene.com in such a way as to imply that it were somehow Microsoft's official site for the Zune. Perhaps I'm being cynical here, but to me this implies a slightly more than merely tenuous connection between you and the site you're promoting.

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