Petition Apple On Firmware Updates

Originally posted by acarrino
great idea man...just signed on

thanks

I just signed too for whatever thats worth.

I thinks it's a great idea, however, I don't have a Gen 1/2 iPod, but I still signed though. I support your cause.

Later,
2point3L

Originally posted by Nick
It should be noted that online petitions generally hold no weight with companies and do not work.

Send letters if you want to get your point across.

Many knows.

We know protesting has had very little success.. but at least we tried instead of doing nothing at all.

First update from me in a few days. The petition's going very well indeed, currently with 1747 signatures.

Unfortunately the hijacking has begun, and people are signing the petition simply to criticise me, the spirit of the petition, and those who have signed it. I'm sure you realise that most people who want to sign won't actually see your signature until after they've signed. If you don't like the petition, send me an email, I'll be happy to reply to any constructive criticism.

Please - if you don't agree with the petition, don't sign it. You're only wasting your time.

I would second the call though by fluglutze - sign the petition, and also submit your dissatisfaction to Apple on their feedback page. (http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html) Mention the petition too when you're submitting the feedback - the more publicity we can get for it, and the more Apple hears about it, the more likely we are to succeed.

I've seen that the URL has also been posted at ipoding.com - thanks whoever did that. If any of you visit another of the iPod websites that I don't (I only frequent iPodlounge), and they've not yet posted the URL, let them know what's going on.

Spread the word, and thanks to everyone who has signed up so far - long may it continue.

Mike

It is a consumer electronics gadget, not a computer. Get over it. When 6.1 home theater systems came out, you didn't hear people b**ching about how wrongheaded it was that their great 5.1 system didn't support that extra speaker. How about Dolby Digital vs ProLogic? Same thing.

Apple Support is right - it supports the new music service. The new features are just that NEW FEATURES - it doesn't make your iPod perform the task it has performed since you got it any worse. Would it be neat to have the new stuff? Sure. My iPod is 2 weeks old. And my enthusiasm for it is no less than they day I got it because the newer models have some nifty stuff. As I said at the start: get over it!
Apple has no legal obligation to releasthe new firmware, and that's not what this is about. Apple has no moral responsibility, nor any 'customer loyalty' obligation. Apple is a company, and companies exist to make money. Apple doesn't make much money releasing the new firmware for new iPods. Besides, thats not how the technology world works! You have to buy new technology to upgrade, it doesn't get handed out to you, even though we are talking about a simple firmware update. Sure they might lose a few customers who think "If Apple doesn't release 2.0 for my old iPod, I won't buy from them again", but that's not a very big loss. So stop whining, your old iPods do everything they're supposed to do, you bought it knowing new models/software would come out. The iPod does everything Apple said it would, you were never told you would be handed freebees. Get over it.

Yeah that was me, Ben. I convinced 2 moderators to leave it up yesterday.
It was up all day and a discussion started with several people. A new moderator came on and deleted it just like that!!! Grr. Anyways I tried and thought it might be interesting to see what would happen.

This must mean they are REALLY sick of this issue and they have heard us to some extent. Although my gut tells me it was some other ##### moderator that did it...

Well anyways, I agree with the fact that we need 2.0 and I just hope Apple litens. At this point the only way to do this is to leave feedback at their feedback page. I know this link has been psoted before but just thought I would leave it again.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html

thanks for listening
ben

I tried posting this topic for several days and they deleted it. This time someoen else has started it. THANK GOD. Maybe they will leave it this time!!! Anyways. it is important that everyone give their opinions about this topic! And do it soon!

http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?13@120.QJx1aVwrlgy.669930@.3bc31956/3

thanks

JamesContrades1:

You've made your point. Copying your previous post word for word serves no purpose other than making your argument seem less credible. I notice you've posted it on the Apple forum too.

Will you at least dignify people like acarrino, who asked you a perfectly legitimate and polite question, with an answer? I'd like to hear what you have to say, because I really can't see where you're coming from, and I think acarrino has hit the proverbial nail on the head. If you leave his question unanswered, others may be led to think the same.

If you read this, please follow this up, I'd be interested to read your response.

Thanks.

JamesContrades,

Speaking as a Moderator
The first time around, your post was just rude (e.g.: telling other Loungers to "get over it"). But posting it a second time counts as trolling. While opinions are welcome here at iPodlounge, rudeness and trolling are not. Consider this your warning - treat other Loungers with politeness, even when you disagree with them.
End Moderator

Speaking as a Regular Guy

FYI, the basic premise of your argument (comparing the iPod to other electronic gadgets) has been used ad nauseum on this board, and, as you can see, it isn't very effective in persuading your opponents. Perhaps if people must continue to berate Classic iPod owners for wanting a firmware upgrade, y'all could at least try a little harder with your arguments, and come up with something a little more creative and less reliant on a False Analogy (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm).

I was only stating my opinion, don't get upset because I don't agree with your opinion.

:rolleyes: I am not and was not upset, and my concern was not with that you stated your opinion, but how you did it.

I have seen other posts where people have had the same tone as me and you have not said anything

If you see a post you think needs a moderator's attention, report it.

It is ludacris.

Actually, no. This is Ludacris (http://www.defjam.com/ludacris/). Your contentions that I and other Classic iPod owners are "lusting" and that our concern about the precedent Apple is setting with the way it's handled the release of iPod 2.0 as "whining" are ludicrous (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ludicrous). ;)

I have learned from past experiences that when one chooses to be blind they will be, and when one is ignorant they simply can't help it. It really doesn't matter how plainly someone lays out their argument because the argument is never seen.

Just because he disagrees with us doesn't mean he's "ignorant" or "blind"... It just means he disagrees.

disagreement is fine, and that is not my gripe.

When one posts their opinion in a strong manner it is expected that others will disagree. When this happens, such as here, and you receive no response to your inquiry it is fair to say the person is blind and/or ignorant...simply my opinion.

James, thought would be a good start. When your argument is inherently flawed from the begining you have little ground to stand on.

rgds.

Guys,

I have to agree with James on this one. Not only does it make no sense at all for Apple to release firmare 2.0 to the 1st/2nd gen iPod owners, they are really not morally obligated to do so either. If Adobe released Photoshop 8.0 tomorrow (please, please let it be so! :D), and all the 7.0 owners tried to gather a petition to get a free upgrade, everyone would laugh them out of town. This situation is no different.

Here's a summary of the features that you guys want for free:
- On-the-fly playlist
- Customizable menus
- New games
- New notes functionality
- Improved alarm
- AAC support

Now what do all of those items have in common? Let's see... they're all NEW features. NEW features means new software. New software that they paid a team of programmers to develop. Apple paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop this new software, why on earth do you people somehow 'deserve' it for free?! That's simply ridiculous.

This firmware is no different from a software product such as Microsoft Office or Adobe Photoshop. In the software world, the rule of thumb is that a software version should be free if it just fixes or slightly enhances functionality that was promised to the user as originally sold. If the release reaches a certain critical mass of NEW functionality, then the sofwtare maker should be able to charge for it. Of course, there's a lot of gray area in there, but that's why it's a rule of thumb. In this case, ALL of the features above are NEW features. You guys paid X dollars for your 1st/2nd gen iPods and they work the way they were advertised - WITHOUT any of the above features.

Furthermore, none of you have made any kind of a case as to WHY Apple should give you this software for free. Of course, there's a lot of ranting along the lines of "Well, Apple should do it because if they don't we'll be mad at them and maybe won't buy their stuff anymore". Let's ignore for a second the incredible immaturity of these statements. These rants are not ARGUMENTS as to why Apple should be obliged to give you freebies, they are simply BLACKMAIL. Pretty meaningless blackmail as well because we all know #### well every single one of you will continue to buy Apple products and iPods.

The only thing I have heard which qualifies as an argument is that "Apple should do it because it is easy and doesn't cost them anything". Let's take the first part. It's very easy for Adobe to send me the updater for Photoshop 6.0 -> 7.0 as well, that doesn't make them obliged to do so. As for the second part - that it doesn't cost them anything - come on now, give me a break. It won't cost them anything to put a link to the firmware on their web site, but it certainly has cost them a pretty penny to pay all those programmers and managers to develop it in the first place. You can go to a car dealership and it won't cost the dealer a red cent to hand you over the car keys, but try making that argument with him and see how far you get.

Ok, I really hope my message has gotten through to some of you. What makes me sick about this whole thing is that you people are trying to drag Apple's name through the mud for no good reason. I've seen mention of old iPod users' anger in major new articles, so Apple is getting bad press for this. And for what? Sure Apple has made some blunders in the past but in this case they are in the right. Every single one of you guys got the EXACT product that you paid for. So what the hell are you whining about? Apple has put out a fantastic product with the new gen iPods. I, for one, hope they continue to put out even better ones. So why would you reward their commitment to our favorite product line by bashing them? Please, drop this ridiculous petition.

Tonicboy

Originally posted by mike273
I'd point you to this thread (http://ipodlounge.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) where you'll find a lot of arguments. As regards the petition, well I'm the author, and you'll find my detailed opinion here. (http://ipodlounge.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4099#post4099)


I've read through that whole topic and it pretty much adds up to what I said before. Many "arguments" along the lines of "they should do it for customer relations". Listen, the bottom line is that you guys are sore that you don't have OTG playlists, and maybe a couple other features. In fact, you're REALLY sore. REALLY REALLY sore. And I'm sorry for you. I know it sucks when you want something so bad and just can't have it. But just because I want my neighbor's Porsche really really bad, doesn't make him a jerk for not giving it to me.

Tonicboy

Originally posted by tonicboy
Guys,

I have to agree with James on this one. Not only does it make no sense at all for Apple to release firmare 2.0 to the 1st/2nd gen iPod owners, they are really not morally obligated to do so either. If Adobe released Photoshop 8.0 tomorrow (please, please let it be so! :D), and all the 7.0 owners tried to gather a petition to get a free upgrade, everyone would laugh them out of town. This situation is no different.

Tonicboy

Yes, it is different. Apple isn't here to sell their firmware. They are selling the actual hardware iPod and firmware is just mere usable function extension.

IT IS NOT A SOFTWARE, IT'S A FIRMWARE. (go look it up too see the difference if u must)

Adobe and this is a bad analogy.

Originally posted by tonicboy
The reason I'm against the petition is because, corny as it may sound, I believe in always doing the right thing. And it bothers me when I see a large group of people organizing themselves to do the wrong thing. It really does bother me. And you guys really are wrong. There simply is no intelligent argument to the contrary. And as for ignoring opinions you don't agree with, I could say the exact same thing to you. Finally, I'm not sure I understand why the number of people involved changes the equation in any way.

How are we possibly doing a "wrong" thing? Are we corrupting the society by asking for this firmware? Are we cheating the system in any way? Are we robbing Apple's bank and putting them to their knees with this firmware? How is asking for a firmware to our $670 iPod a wrong thing?

Your saying people doesn't have the rights to tell any business what they should do? Business has the right to screw it's customer as it pleases and we shouldn't do a d**n thing about it?

...

Originally posted by px2so
How are we possibly doing a "wrong" thing? Are we corrupting the society by asking for this firmware? Are we cheating the system in any way? Are we robbing Apple's bank and putting them to their knees with this firmware? How is asking for a firmware to our $670 iPod a wrong thing?

Your saying people doesn't have the rights to tell any business what they should do? Business has the right to screw it's customer as it pleases and we shouldn't do a d**n thing about it?

...

I've already explained at length why I think you guys do not have any reasonable claim to this firmware for free. It follows that it's wrong to demand something that you have no claim to. Anyway, I'm not saying anything I haven't said before and neither are you, so let's just kill this tit-for-tat.

p.s. You paid $670 for your iPod? No wonder you're mad ;)

Originally posted by tonicboy
I've already explained at length why I think you guys do not have any reasonable claim to this firmware for free. It follows that it's wrong to demand something that you have no claim to. Anyway, I'm not saying anything I haven't said before and neither are you, so let's just kill this tit-for-tat.

p.s. You paid $670 for your iPod? No wonder you're mad ;)

Yea i paid $670CND for it. Just like any other iPod buyers. Am i ####ed? Only for the OTG playlist, i don't care about 2 more games, and customizable menu, etc. OTG should have been a standard in the first place anyways. Many of other iPod competing products have them as a standard feature. Is it that hard for apple to make a firmware to support this for old ipods? I don't know, apparently it is.

Did u buy an G3 iPod?

Originally posted by tonicboy
Oh I see, Canadian dollars. Well I did buy a new iPod actually and now have two. But I bought it more for the size, memory and design than the firmware. To be honest, you're all making a big fuss about nothing because the OTG playlist isn't even that great. It's fatally flawed in that you can't add songs to a queue that's already playing. You have to stop and restart the playlist. I'm more impressed with the games. Parachute is incredibly addictive and who can argue against Solitaire?

Yea, i've read how the new iPod's OTG playlist works, disappointing. I maybe making a big fuss about something so insignificant. But i don't have the right to stop people from making their voice heard.

I'll just leave it at that.

Thanks Jason, your support is appreciated.

Mike

s_n_m, my thoughts exactly.

Firmware is a type of software, right? You all know that if you go out and buy a kind of software, you can download updates for free. Usually, if they go from say 7.0 to 8.0, the company may have some sort of upgrade fee, as opposed to buying the software all over again, and you can go download the upgrade. Apple, so far, is not allowing the Gen 2 iPod users to download the Gen 3 firmware. Why not? They could easily do it. It isn't like the Gen 2 iPod is physically unable to handle the 2.0 firmware. But they needed something to sell the Gen 3's. More than just looks, a cradle, and a smaller form. That firmware was the key. But it doesn't look as though they'll ever make any kind of firmware update for the Gen 2's. How disappointing. Marketing scheme? Not really. Unfair? Heck yeah. Now, people might say "Life is unfair", but screw that. I paid 500 canadian for my Gen 2 iPod, and I want updates. Updates that fix any leftover bugs. Updates that add more games. Updates that add On the Go playlists, as crappy as they may be (they'll probably be fixing that soon). Imagine you bought a 2nd Gen iPod at the beginning of April. The 3rd Gens are announced at the end of April. How would you feel? You couldn't take it back to the store, and say "I don't want this iPod, I want the newer one, because of the newer features, give me my money back", you'd have to actually physically damage the iPod in order to MAYBE get your money back (depending on the warrenty you got) or else you might even just get another Gen 2. I guess even if I have to wait a few months for the update, I really want Apple to release it. It is VERY unfair that we Gen 2 users had to put a whole whack of coin down only to (so far) be denied any firmware updates, which should be free, or AT LEAST have a cheaper "update fee" of sorts. Heck, I'd pay 50 more bucks to have the update. It'd be nice to have. Free'd be better, but that might not be what Apple has up its sleeve...I guess we'll see.

joining this discussion late, but i agree with tonicboy, here are a few points:

1:s_n_m, i think that compairing the ipod to a computer is flawed, the ipod is a consumer music device. and is not in the same price range or catagory as a computer

2:tonicboy, thank you for spelling out the point better than anyone else. i think your argument (this is a forum, for the exchange of ideas) is valid, and a refeshing change.

3: s_n_m, you said that you can't buy firmware 2.0, but you can, go buy a new consumer music player (ipod) with 2.0 installed, bet ya it will cost lower than photoshop 8!

Heh, burnbob... the 30GB iPod is actually more as expensive than a couple PCs that I've seen on my "local" store's shelves. And that's with monitors included!

Off topic, it just goes to show... "ma and pa" PC shops have great deals and need your support!

:D

Back on topic... it's obvious to me that the two polarized sides of this debate will never convince one another that the other side's wrong. It's fun watching the same arguments go back and forth, though... keep having fun guys!

got his point across Jason? i have never heard a valid good point to the "give 2.0 to older ipods" other than the "gimmie, gimmie, i want it, so you should give it to me for free" argument. if you are looking for a case in point to this argument, look a couple posts up at burnbomb.

and we all know gimmie gimmie never gets.

as for expensive consumer electronics, i ipod IS expensive when compaired to cheap walkmans and diskmans, but compaired to other consumer electronics, such as camcorders, DVD players, heck, other mp3 players, it is pretty much the same. i paid the same price as an ipod for a nomad II 4 years ago, and thought it was reasonable.

read all of the documentation that comes with your ipod. does it say ANYWHERE that they are going to add specific features to the ipod at a later date? nope.

as for bugs, they have fixed most of them on the mac side. wait a couple months for the PC side, they'll release 1.3 when itunes PC is ready. my ipod works the exact same as it did the day i bought it (actually a bit better with 1.3) so i am still very happy with what i got for my money.

Dean, did you read my post at all?

-First off, I said that even something like an upgrade fee would be an idea. That means you pay maybe 50 bucks, and you get a firmware update for your old iPod that gives it the new gen iPod features. Reasonable, no? That'd probably solve a few problems.

I know deep down you want it. OTG playlists, more games...everyone who owns a 2nd gen wants stuff like that.

Mistake of comparing them? Trust me, that was no mistake. If you can't see the similarities then you must be blind. Let's release a product! OK, now let's make a new one, and completely ignore the last model. That's great. Teriffic.

What I'm trying to get across is why should I have to go out and buy a 3rd gen iPod now, after just buying the 2nd gen? Why? It's ridiculous! I'm sorry I don't have the money to go blowing on a new iPod, there dean.

Asking around my "geek circle" of friends, they all agreed that firmware is indeed software, and just like all other software upgrades, firmware upgrades should be free or have some sort of upgrade fee. Oh look! I said there should be a fee! Make sure you note this for next time, please...

Completely abandoning support on a slightly (and I mean VERY slightly) older iPod is completely absurd. Woo. Yay. Windows users get 1.3 here soon. Wow, I think that's teriffic. So where's our OTG playlists? ACC support? More games? The hardware can handle it, so it should be offered to us at least for free, or for a small fee. So there.

Originally posted by burnbomb
Mistake of comparing them? Trust me, that was no mistake. If you can't see the similarities then you must be blind. Let's release a product! OK, now let's make a new one, and completely ignore the last model. That's great. Teriffic.

yea, i get that, they pick on customers, but i was trying to point out that microsoft is still doing pretty good, even with this business model. they must be doing something right. btw, i still get patches sent for my win98 machine at work, but i have never gotten a new feature

Originally posted by burnbomb
What I'm trying to get across is why should I have to go out and buy a 3rd gen iPod now, after just buying the 2nd gen? Why? It's ridiculous! I'm sorry I don't have the money to go blowing on a new iPod, there dean.

nobody is forcing you to...... are they??? (if they are, in you next post use a ;) and i'll alert the cops) and just for the record, i'm not made of money ether.... but yet, i still seem to be happy with my current ipod, nuts, no?

Originally posted by burnbomb
Asking around my "geek circle" of friends, they all agreed that firmware is indeed software, and just like all other software upgrades, firmware upgrades should be free or have some sort of upgrade fee. Oh look! I said there should be a fee! Make sure you note this for next time, please...

i don't think that anybody was debating that firmware is not software, were they? and as i previously posted, i do not think apple sees any value in having a fee upgrade program. if you are looking for an upgrade program, i believe a new ipod goes for around $300. (MUCH cheaper than most other software programs too, AND IT COMES WITH NEW HARDWARE!)

Originally posted by burnbomb
Completely abandoning support on a slightly (and I mean VERY slightly) older iPod is completely absurd. Woo. Yay. Windows users get 1.3 here soon. Wow, I think that's teriffic. So where's our OTG playlists? ACC support? More games? The hardware can handle it, so it should be offered to us at least for free, or for a small fee. So there.

ahhhh, i think i see the root of the problem. you bought an ipod right before the new ones were released (if you had done some research, you would have seen that they were going to be updated pretty soon) and think that apple owes you something. (you weren't the guy in the open letter, were you?) why didn't you take it back if it was so new, and get the new one? you made sure you had an exchange warrenty, right?

1.3 give you acc support, so i wouldn't cry about that one.

and please give me ONE concrete example of the old hardware being able to handle the 2.0 firmware. my friend said so, or cuz are not good answers.

thanks, this has been fun.

I would love to give you a concrete example of the firmware working on the old hardware, but the only proof I can give you is the fact that the only difference mechanically between the 2nd gens and the 3rd gens is the smaller hard drive (and well, the battery, and the buttons are touch sensitive, but I'm talking more that would have to do with it physically not being able to handle the firmware). Trust me, the old hardware can handle the firmware. Has Apple said it HASN'T yet? No. True, they haven't said it can, as well, but I personally don't see as to why it wouldn't.

Oh, and an upgrade fee of 50 bucks would be good. Any more, maybe overkill. You're forgetting. A "300 dollar iPod" there is about 500 to me (I'm Canadian). That's a lot of moola. So I, personally, would be willing to pay 50 or so dollars for the firmware, I'm not interested in the physical aspect of the new iPods, although cool. I'm interested in the OTG playlists (though buggy now) and new games, etc etc.

There are clearly 2 sides to the argument. But I can't see why a lot of people are saying "Well, Apple shouldn't have to release firmware updates for old hardware". But Microsoft is, according to you, releasing updates for old OS's. Why not? I'm sure Creative makes updates for their old MP3 players...why not Apple? I know Apple's the underdog, but they shouldn't be pulling cheap tricks like they did (cheap, meaning announcing a new iPod only a few days before launch, as opposed to a few months).

Ok. I can see your point of view. I'm kind of tired arguing about it because I didn't come onto the iPodlounge boards to argue about stuff. I came to have fun, hear others' stories about their iPods, read up about problems, etc.

But, I should ask you: When did you buy your iPod? Did you buy yours anywhere near the announcement date of the 3rd gens? If I were to say "Ok, you know, I'd love that new iPod. It's got quite a bit of stuff that the old ones don't...", I wouldn't be able to march into the store, even with an extended warranty, and say "I don't like this product, in fact, I like the newer one, can I please trade this in and get it?". I'd probably be laughed at. Working at Electronics Boutique myself, we get a lot of people who come in and try to bring back games they don't like, or try and bring back Gameboy Advances in order to get the new SPs. We cannot take it back. Just as London Drugs (the place I got my 'Pod from) wouldn't take it back. It's rather ridiculous. It's a #### good thing I love my iPod as much as I do, and that I'm not disappointed with it. I'd love to have the new features, but I guess in my current situation there is simply nothing I can do about it, but send feedback to Apple hoping they'd include some of the new features in firmware updates (well, I already have done it).

It's called progress. Was I bummed that the 2nd generation iPods, like the 20GB iPod I sold recently, wouldn't get the new firmware or dock? Sure, for a brief moment. But it's technology. It's supposed to change at a "bleeding edge" pace. In my case, I had the will and the means to sell my 20GB iPod and buy a new 30GB iPod. Guess what -- my first 30GB was a lemon, so I've been completely without an iPod for 3 weeks. How's that for "upgrading"??

Enjoy what you've got, or upgrade if it's something you really desire and can afford to drop the $$ on. Otherwise, understand business is business. It's not like Apple forced all manufacturers to pull all non-3rd generation iPod accessories from the market, leaving the pre-3rd generation folks high and dry.

By the time I've burned in my 3rd generation iPod, I'm sure there will be a 4th generation iPod with 60GB HD, infrared remote, true on the go playlists that I can sync back to my computer, and more. At some point you balance your needs, your wants, and your abilities. That's why I'm still using my Tibook 400mhZ and not the latest & greatest Apple laptop available. That's a great way to go into massive debt...and for what? "Geek cred"? I'd rather see a balance of -0- on my credit cards again.

It's fine where it is...some people have valid points.

I agree - scrap this.

Dean0 and Mongoos have a good point, bob. it's just going to go back and forth, and should be allowed to fall off of the page to a quite resting place.

Originally posted by carlin
you people who want the 2.0 updates are spoiled little brats who think everything should be handed to them. Its technology, its called upgrading, GET THE #$## OVER IT. You people are ridiculous and have way too much time on your hands..!!!!

'carlin',

So I'm ridiculous am I? I have too much time on my hands, do i? How do you know this? Have you met me? Do you know me? Actually, come to think of it, no, you've never met me.

You know nothing about me or any of these other people who have the same viewpoint. By all means disagree with us, but please do not make this personal. Personal attacks are not on. Abusing people makes your point so much weaker.

An apology is in order, I believe.

An annoyed Mike

Originally posted by JamesContrades
Dean0 and Mongoos have a good point, bob. it's just going to go back and forth, and should be allowed to fall off of the page to a quite resting place.

James,
I have been informed that the petition is still being signed. True it has been going back and forth and has been turned into a slanging match between certain individuals, but that is not the fault of mike273, the thread starter.
So for now it stays a sticky - hope you understand.

Ravat -- that's why I research any major purchase I'm going to buy, rather than counting on the 'hired hands' at a booth or store (like CompUSA or Best Buy) to explain to me the features and benefits of a product. That's like buying a car just because the salesman says it's the best car he's ever driven, IMHO.

Did you not read MadPict's message?

Simple..yes. But it's also simple when a mod says that they're not letting the topic slide down.

Madpict, my point is not that the petition is still getting posts to it, it is the relivance of this post, and why it is stickied.

in the last month we have already seen an update to new ipods, and no new firmware for the older ipods. i think this post is:

a: leading to false hope that an update is "just around the corner" but we can all tell it is not.

b: giving the issue more credit than it is due. all this post is doing is causing a shouting match between the firmware camps, and causing some trolling.

but i could be wrong. if this issue is so important, why not un-sticky it, and see if it even stays on the page past a week. i'm willing to bet it will be gone. it should be treated to the same rules as all the other posts(maybe even less so, as it has caused allot of bad blood and moderator time and energy), and allowed to go away once we have stoped talking about it.