Gaps between tunes

It's not really skips between the tracks, it's more like it skips the entire track after playing half of the song. It's really really annoying!

Well, you're both correct. The iPod doesn't have seamless play between tracks, AND many users of the newer iPods report skipping as well.

Originally posted by peterodda
I suppose the MP3s could be merged together somehow into one big MP3? of course you lose the track listings and an element of control... is searching through a tune possible? those gaps would seriously affect certain cd's it'd sound awful or am i being pedantic? hmm...

It's completely awful. WHenever I get into a song about 45 seconds or so, it skips to another song. I am so upset about this! It only does this about 1 of every 5 songs, but is so annoying!

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the I believe lack of the ability to play tracks seamlessly is present in all mp3's, not just on the ipod. When I rip cds with songs that mix together onto my computer there is a gap as well. Seeing how this is an inherent problem in mp3's, it's probably not an easy fix. Sure, cds and vinly can do it; All the needle or laser has to do is keep going along the same path. Mp3's would have to somehow begin loading the next song before the previous ended, but only do so when the two songs are meant to be blended.

to get rid of the gaps you can place all the songs into a playlist, the gaps should not be a problem.

Originally posted by docevi1
that doesn't get rid of the gaps.

It is part of the encoding, a small gap is put at start and finish usually. You get rid of them using a cross-fader but that isn't implemented in the iPod - probably take too much power.

Stefan

Stefan, i'm talking about the gap you get from the buffer on the ipod while it loads up a new song, not the encoding, and i believe that's what this topics about.

i listen to my live CDs this way, all ripped with itunes, and it sounds perfectly

Originally posted by peterodda
its poor that so-called "new" technology should not deliver something as basic as seamless play - that has existed in vinyl and cd's since the dark ages. as for your problem with skipping tracks that sounds like something you would send it back for. basically, it falls under the category "does not fulfill the purpose for which it was purchased". i don't think anyone could argue with that.

Winamp2 hs a gapless plugin that works perfectly fine, even without crossfading.

Shame on you for getting the new models
my 10gb, has 0 problems, and works like a dream with 9.8 hrs of battery life.

For me, I don't know if I would say that the iPod "does not fulfill the purpose for which it was purchased", since the purpose (for me anyway) is mainly to carry around a LOT of music in a small easy to use player. However, it is an annoyance, and it should definitely be corrected by the Apple engineers, not in the 3rd design of the iPod but as a software fix if at all possible.

dymod

Originally posted by Justin Hancock
Supposedly, that has to do with corrupt MP3 files. I haven't experienced what you're describing.

No, it's not currupt mp3 files, the files play perfectly on my PC. Also when the song does completely skip over to another one, I can go back and usually the whole song will play. It is a serious bug.

ok, in regards to skipping to the next song it dymod has it right. "corrupt" or imperfect MP3 files. And yes in all probability going back and re-encoding each song that is having a problem should correct the skipping.

But to say it "doesn't matter" how well they play on a PC doesn't make much sense and certainly does not qualify as an accurate response to the problems of the new IPod's.
Fact is this is a widespread bug and while a portion of the blame lies with poorly encoded MP3's that does not absolve Apple from releasing a firmware revision that can play these files considering that 1st and 2nd generation IPod players will play these same EXACT files that skip on the 3rd gen without a single hitch.
The current IPod's firmware is extremely sensitive to these imperfections and that needs to be remedied. I have a number of these files which play as smooth as silk on my 20 gig IPod, all my machines at home, my MD player and a old Hip Zip but the new $400 IPod chokes on. Now I can re-encode all these files but why should I have to when the same companies "old" product is able to play them.

To say that the new model of the IPod does not have to play files that play perfectly on other MP3 players that are two years old or older that went for half the price is pretty silly.

Lets hope the problem is corrected shortly along with the other bugs on the new IPods. Keep your solitaire and parachute, if I wanted games I would buy a gameboy, just give me the software to play the MP3's - the reason I have shelled out over $700 for two devices.

Originally posted by mongoos150
If it is corrupt mp3 files (which I rip directly from cds, not downloaded files)why can I can go back from a skipped song and have it play fine? It is not recorring on any certain file, it is random.

I can't answer that, since I'm not an Apple product or software engineer. I'm pretty curious to find out myself.

And by the way, when I said it "doesn't matter" if the song played ok on your computer what I meant by that was that merely playing the song in iTunes or MM Jukebox isn't a good register of whether or not it will play on your iPod. Of course I am irritated by the iPod's obvious shortcomings and I hope there's a fix available soon.

I was listening to the new scooter album: the stadium techno exprerience (I think it is called), and i didnt notice the gap between the tracks, and some of them are mixed together to. I dont think it is a big problem

Bottom line folks, the lack of gapless playback is a function of mp3 technology, not the iPod.

Now, could Apple have created a pseudo-gapless solution (i.e. cross-fading)? Yes, they could have and have done so in iTunes. Just not on the iPod.

Oh, and regarding the skipping track bug. This has been a bug since day one.

There are 3 reasons for it. 2 known (that can be resolved) the 3rd to my knowledge is still a mystery:

1. Do not name your files with non-english characters--such as Accents or Umlauts. Unless you're using a program like MC9 which will automatically rename the files to random numbers, or you're using ephpod and have the setting set to name them to random numbers.

2. If you're using ephpod, under the Advanced Configuration setting, make sure you have it set to store your songs in folders F00 through F19. Earlier versions of ephod stored them all in F00, this caused the iPod to have to seek through one huge folder to find songs. It would cause timeouts. Not sure if Joe has fixed that in the 2.7 versions.

3. The "mystery" playlist bug. Would happen to some people, not all. In this case, usually the first song in a playlist would be skipped for no apparent reason.

Just thought I'd add a little history to the whole discussion... ;)

Adam

You're making my point. The plugin makes the gaps disappear. MP3s are separate files...hence the nature of the gap. You can fool that by essentially loading the next file and beginning playback prior to or at the exact instant one song ends--it's still a form of cross-fading even though there may be zero detectable cross-fading (to our ear).

Now, where we do have agreement is on the iPod's buffer. Because the buffer doesn't reload prior to it being emptied, even if you did create a single mp3 file off of an album (thereby producing true gapless output) you still run into small pauses every 20 minutes or so as the cache is reloaded. And these are even worse as they occur during the middle of a song rather than between them as usually occurs on non "DJ" albums...

Adam

Ok, I've performed a rather conclusive set of tests on my 15gig 3rd Gen iPod.

Using Cool Edit Pro 2.0 I generated a 300Hz wave for 10 seconds and encoded it as an MP3 at 192Kbps. I generated another MP3 almost identical, but it was a 450Hz wave. I put these two onto my iPod and made the following playlist:

300
300
450
450
300

This (I think) caters for each possibility and permutation. Including the time gap between two of the same song (and is therefore already buffered).

I then played this playlist from my iPod and recorded it onto my PC again in Cool Edit Pro. I can therefore tell you the precise time gaps (including the click noise) between the four permutations.

300 into 300 gap: 0.103 of a second
300 into 450 gap: 0.259 of a second
450 into 450 gap: 0.149 of a second
450 into 300 gap: 0.177 of a second

Therefore the average total gap between songs in my ipod from those four samples is 0.172 of a second.

Personally I don't mind the gap between songs since I don't listen to mixed cd's much (if at all). However you could always rip the CD as a single MP3, then it'll not have to go into a different MP3 for each track. If you do this but only want a single track in a playlist, you could set the start and finish time in iTunes (not sure if this would work tho).

the bigger the next mp3, the longer the gap. two ten second mp3's is hardly a definitive test.

for example, the cd dubnobasswithmaheadman by underworld tracks 1 & 2 are 9 and 13 minutes long respectively... the gap between them while it loads the 13 minute track is over 1 second... add a nice little click as well and it gets pretty annoying...

I was trying to establish the minimum gap induced by the software, not how long it takes to buffer the song, hence the short track length and small mp3 files.

If I wanted to rip a whole cd with no gap's I'd use Cool Edit Pro, however this is expensive (about as much as a 15 gig ipod itself). The only other software I use to rip is CDex (and i don't think its possible to do a whole cd in this) and iTunes (where its definatly not possible). However I'm sure there is software for free that will do the job.

Originally posted by peterodda
i don't see the distinction between mp3's and data on cd's and minidiscs - it's all data, and if it's handled properly by well written software everyone will get the results they want. i've had cd copiers insert gaps when copying audio cd's - now don't tell me that's because of the format of cd's. it's all about the software. don't give apple excuses for poorly written software (embedded or not) by blaming the format.

surely if winamp, mc9 et al can do gapless and crossfading so can the software in the ipod. it aint no rocket science.

"It's all data"?? Arrghhh. So, I presume by that logic a Word document is no different than an Access database. Heck it's just data...

No, it's not the "cd copying programs" that are creating the gaps my friend, it is the architecture of the file layout. I'm not making excuses for Apple, to the contrary, I believe they poorly designed their buffer which if designed correctly would have been able to compensate for the shortcomings of the MP3 data format.

But there is most assuradly a difference between data formats and it makes a big difference. In fact all the difference.

Adam

Does anyone know if ACC has the same problem with gapless playback as MP3? Would be interesting to hear from someone with a Mac how has tried this :)

i understand your point that mp3 vs cda, though i believe my "data = data" point was merely a simplification rather than an over-simplification - i spend half my life dealing with various types of "data" in this form or another, trying to make it useful to someone ... and i've heard the "but this is different" argument a few hundred times. it never is. if you can read it you can present it how you like. anyway, glad you weren't being sarcastic and i think we're all agreed - it'd be lovely to have crossfading on the ipod. i still love it without it though. i feel like i'm being kinda pedantic cos i'm not having any of the problems other people are reporting (i.e. "real" bugs) except for the clicks of course (grr)

i guess we'll just have to wait and see... let's hope so. at the moment, any mixed cd's i'm ripping as one big mp3; the only way to get round this currently.

not exactly, but there are utilities that will merge mp3's together to form one mp3 - the best i've come across is mp3surgeon but i must admit i've not looked that hard. i say "not exactly" cos there is always a (albeit tiny) gap between each track. re-ripping from source is always the best way.

if you're really desperate you could just play gapless/crossfaded in winamp/mc9 and record your output with a line out jack. i wouldn't recommend it though, more trouble than it's worth.

ACC and MP4 are, apparently, the same regarding gapless.

as for mp3 trackmaker, yep good tool, but still leaves a gap between the tunes you've joined. it's very small, but it's still there.

i just bought the new 10gig ipod, and was so impressed with it until i tried playing a mix cd from a playlist, and there they were, gaps between tracks. This is a HUGE issue, as i cannot listen to music as the artist intended it to be heard, live recordings and dj mixes are affected the most by this stupid oversight by apple. To the uninformed: this is NOT a mp3 only issue, gaps also occur when wav files are uploaded to the ipod. Winamp has been playing gapless for years, i am so dissapointed with my ipod i am going to take it back. Its a buffering issue not a kazza/mp3 encode issue etc, cd players and even MD can do this, and i do not want to rip my mix cds using EAC because then you lose the track info and you end up with 1 long 60 min mp3 that you cannot navigate by tracks. If this was fixed by a firmware upgrade you would think it would have been accomplished by now. Its really too bad i was loving the ipod...

I can't listen to my operas becasuse of this as well. At least the click thing is over, but when you're lost in your music and suddenly this gap (and the then click) thing comes up, you become rudely awakened and that ####es me off.

I never tried it with my old Jukebox, but on my Nomad IIMG, there was no gap or clicks between the tracks except an almost imperceptible artifact that doesn't interrupt me. Maybe it's a reflection of how solid state players may still be better than HD based players, but I just wonder if any of the Zen owners face the same problem?

My gosh! That looks tedious, especially if I have to do it for all the tracks. And it doesn't work with all 192kbps files?

Originally posted by supperman
I can't listen to my operas becasuse of this as well. At least the click thing is over, but when you're lost in your music and suddenly this gap (and the then click) thing comes up, you become rudely awakened and that ####es me off.

I never tried it with my old Jukebox, but on my Nomad IIMG, there was no gap or clicks between the tracks except an almost imperceptible artifact that doesn't interrupt me. Maybe it's a reflection of how solid state players may still be better than HD based players, but I just wonder if any of the Zen owners face the same problem?

I was like that with Enigma and Jean Michel Jarre albums, start getting into a trance then bam! gap noise! hrmm.

Who cares about the format! Crapple needs to lift their game and fix this issue and stop only concentrating on looks because it's whats inside what counts the most.

hi guys,

from what i have read, most of the complaints seem to range from 1/2 to 1 second.

when i am playing my ipod with my main playlist of about 2700 songs, i get about 4-5 seconds between songs.

i thought that maybe reducing the crossfade from 6 seconds to 2 seconds might change stuff. i just did this, so i may have to do a complete restore to know for sure.

i enjoy a short pause between songs. i wish it was not quite so long as it is now, but that is a minor inconvenience.

i have a 60 gig - and thrilled to be able to carry around so much music on such a tiny instrument.