My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Well i wasn't really happy with my battery life on my new 10gb ipod. So i decided to give it a full charge and turn it on Start from playing song #1 (of like 1000 songs) and let it go all day on 75% volume...maybe a little more.
Started it at 12:36 during after noon with 4 battery cells, it then went to 0 battery cells at 8:06
but keeps playing and finally totally died at 8:42 so it didnt So it technically lasted 7 hours 30 minutes until it went to 0 cells. But actually worked for 8 hours 6 minutes. Im guessing this is pretty good for just letting it play out and see how long you can get, evBut when you think about it...you add some backlight usage, some scrolling around lookin for music, some game playing or something stupid, i guess thats why a lot of people only get like 4-5-6 hours (which i do to).
Anyone else do a little self test? Whats everyones view on this.
Also - according to apple are you supposed to have 8 hours of battery life until 0 cells, or until it shuts off cause its actually dead?
[1054 byte] By [
dancore] at [2007-11-9 12:42:02]
# 1 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Apple says that the battery meter on the iPod is approximate. The iPod should give you around eight hours of battery life, no matter what the battery meter says or will predict. And by eight hours, they mean no or VERY little backlight, no random changing of songs or anything that will trigger the hard disk to spin up.
Yes, I get quite a few minutes worth of music playback on zero bars.
# 2 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Yes, everyone complains about battery life, when in reality their iPods really do get the stated 8 hours (often more) if they don't mess around with them.
# 3 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
The whole point of having thousands of songs in your pocket is to be able to access them at will, as randomly as you feel.
I'm hoping apple comes up with a solution in the next ipod revision, as I'm getting the typical 4-5 hours with my 15 gigger.
# 4 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by donnyfire
The whole point of having thousands of songs in your pocket is to be able to access them at will, as randomly as you feel.
True. You should get around 7 hours battery life, even if you change your playlist every now and then...
Also, it helps to rip your songs into AAC format, as the iPod is able to store more songs in its buffer, due to the smaller file size... let's say due to the AAC file format, your iPod is able to store one extra song in its buffer than if the songs were larger MP3 files. And the iPod is able to cache over 20 minutes of music. Divide 7 hours (420 mins.) of playtime by 20 minutes, and that means that the iPod's hard drive needs to spin up 21 times to re-buffer. If you are able to store one extra song per loading of the buffer because of AAC, you get 21 extra songs, or an average of 84 more minutes, depending more or less of how loud you play your music, how much you fiddle with the iPod, etc, etc.
# 5 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Well, that's true... but many folks own multiple music playing devices and scant few of them play AAC. I know that personally, it would be a nightmare to have to re-rip my entire collection (which is all ripped in LAME VBR).
MP3 is not the most efficient format out there, but it's got total cross-device functionality, which is a big plus.
Gunner at 2007-11-15 14:20:23 >
# 6 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Lithium-Ion batteries do not like to be fully discharged. So I would avoid these experiments if I were you guys. My friend got an iPod around the same time as me. Both of us were making a 4-hour driving commute to work every week but I had a car charger and he did not. I told him not to let his iPod battery run out but he was always stuck in the car without a charger and ran it out frequently. Now he gets about 4 hours charge max, while I still get around 7-8. Moral of the story: DON'T FULLY DISCHARGE YOUR BATTERY!!
# 7 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by tonicboy
Lithium-Ion batteries do not like to be fully discharged. So I would avoid these experiments if I were you guys. My friend got an iPod around the same time as me. Both of us were making a 4-hour driving commute to work every week but I had a car charger and he did not. I told him not to let his iPod battery run out but he was always stuck in the car without a charger and ran it out frequently. Now he gets about 4 hours charge max, while I still get around 7-8. Moral of the story: DON'T FULLY DISCHARGE YOUR BATTERY!!
That might be the case with the old 1G and 2G iPods, with their Li Polymer batteries. It could be a different story for LiIon cells.
# 8 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by ZoidbergD
That might be the case with the old 1G and 2G iPods, with their Li Polymer batteries. It could be a different story for LiIon cells.
I'm not sure what you mean. The 3G iPods have the same type of batteries as the 1G and 2G iPods but with a different capacity. And by the way, a Li-Polymer battery is a Lithium Ion battery. Same chemistry but with a moldable gel-polymer electrolyte.
# 9 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
I have never heard of complete discharge hurting a lithium ion battery.
I know that supposedly G1 and G2 Ipods had an issue where a capacitor in the unit would hold charge over time and degrade the battery life.
Some shop was offering to open the unit up, discharge the capacitor in question and "restore" the battery life of the unit.
All told, Lithium ion batteries should be good for a minimum of 500 charges (with over 1000 charges being much more likely) and they should not have issues with being discharged... they are in fact designed to be discharged at times (what the heck is the point of a battery operated device if you cannot run it to exhaustion).
Siemens tells me to discharge the battery completely on my new S56 cell phone the first few cycles to properly break the battery in and get the maximum out of it. That also seems to conflict with the logic that draining the battery will somehow screw it up.
Gunner at 2007-11-15 14:24:31 >
# 10 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by Gunner
I have never heard of complete discharge hurting a lithium ion battery.
...
Siemens tells me to discharge the battery completely on my new S56 cell phone the first few cycles to properly break the battery in and get the maximum out of it. That also seems to conflict with the logic that draining the battery will somehow screw it up.
It's true that you should discharge the battery completely the first 1-3 cycles. However, that advice is limited to exactly that, the first 1-3 cycles. Anyway, you have heard of complete discharge hurting a lithium ion battery's life - I just told you. Is that any less valid than any other way of hearing about it? If you didn't know that sitting in a stationary car with the engine on could kill you, does that make it not true? Before you get all in a huff, I'm prepared to back up my meticulously researched claims with evidence.
Exhibit #1:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion
- Note that they say "Never use the 'battery care' functions some cellular phones provide for nickel based batteries. (This will deep cycle the batteries.)". Deep cycling means completely discharging a battery and then recharging it again. Very bad thing for Li-Ion.
Exhibit #2:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
- If you have a short attention span, skip to the Simple Guidelines at the bottom where you are advised to "Avoid full discharges".
Exhibit #3:
http://www.nexergy.com/Reflib/Lithium_Ion_FAQ.html
- See question 6. Especially "...over discharge (voltage < 2.4V / cell) will cause irreversible chemical changes to the cell. These charges will reduce the retained capacity and cycle life of the battery"
- Also, in question 7 - "Perhaps the most dramatic increase in cycle life and retained capacity results from cycling at less than 100% depth of discharge" In English, this means - don't fully discharge!! Note that they say "the most dramatic increase in cycle life". This means that not only is not fully discharging your Li-Ion battery a good idea, it's the best idea to prolong your battery life.
Exhibit #4:
http://www.powerpulse.net/powerpulse/archive/aa_040201b1.stm
- Of special interest is the footnote for Li-Ion batteries where the author states "Cycle life is based on depth of discharge. Shallow discharges provide more cycles than deep discharges"
--
Ummm, any questions?!?! :eek: :confused: :cool:
# 11 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
If that is the case then the device manufacturer would simply cause the unit to shut off with a battery alert when the unit is at 5 or 10 percent of it's actual battery life (thereby preventing a total discharge).
If they didn't do this then they would be idiots as people regularly run batteries out and they would just end up doing warranty work on the units that get their life reduced.
Gunner at 2007-11-15 14:26:28 >
# 12 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by Gunner
If that is the case then the device manufacturer would simply cause the unit to shut off with a battery alert when the unit is at 5 or 10 percent of it's actual battery life (thereby preventing a total discharge).
If they didn't do this then they would be idiots as people regularly run batteries out and they would just end up doing warranty work on the units that get their life reduced.
I think most people would agree I've done my very best to provide you with some helpful advice, but if you insist on not believing me, then go ahead and run your batteries out to your heart's content. Myself, I will have a very well cared for Li-Ion battery and will get the most out of its lifecycle.
# 13 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
That's a lot of advice, and includes things I did not know before. Thank you tonicboy.
These are things that I personaly think a RESPONSIBLE manufacturer would include in the owners manual. If only to reduce the number of units coming in for warranty service.
But on a side note, does anyone know if there is a way (3rd party) to replace the battery on the 3rd gen ipods as there was with the earlier models? I mean, it will probably come to this point for most of us.
# 14 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
I just got a new 30G iPod and battery life is a main concern to me as it's not very easy to replace.
It does seem a bit stupid if Apple didn't write some code to help preserve battery life, and expecting users to 'manage' their battery?
As I see it, they state that the battery indicator doesn't reflect the real charge left in the battery and is only an estimate. On mine I've noticed it bounce up and down during playback.
Without some accurate measure on the iPod itself are we expected to carry an egg timer with us so that once we're near 8 hours usage we should stop using it until we can recharge? :confused:
Zither at 2007-11-15 14:29:28 >
# 15 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
tonicboy, I see what you're trying to say. But for me, my iPod has only fully discharged twice since I got it. It's not like I rountinely run down the battery just for fun. I suppose two full discharges doesn't do any real damage, but I could be wrong. What do you think? But I found something on one of the websites:
"Although lithium-ion is memory-free in terms of performance deterioration, engineers often refer to "digital memory" on batteries with fuel gauges. Short discharges with subsequent recharges do not provide the periodic calibration needed to synchronize the fuel gauge with the battery's state-of-charge. A deliberate full discharge and recharge every 30 charges corrects this problem. Letting the battery run down to the cut-off point in the equipment will do this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate. "
So they're advising you not to fully discharge the battery, and yet they are asking you to do it every now and then. Seems a little backwards?
Also, running down the iPod until it won't play music anymore, but it still is able to power up and display the low battery warning. Then doesn't it still have some charge in it? Would that be still considered a full discharge then?
# 16 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by ZoidbergD
tonicboy, I see what you're trying to say. But for me, my iPod has only fully discharged twice since I got it. It's not like I rountinely run down the battery just for fun. I suppose two full discharges doesn't do any real damage, but I could be wrong. What do you think? But I found something on one of the websites:
"Although lithium-ion is memory-free in terms of performance deterioration, engineers often refer to "digital memory" on batteries with fuel gauges. Short discharges with subsequent recharges do not provide the periodic calibration needed to synchronize the fuel gauge with the battery's state-of-charge. A deliberate full discharge and recharge every 30 charges corrects this problem. Letting the battery run down to the cut-off point in the equipment will do this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate. "
So they're advising you not to fully discharge the battery, and yet they are asking you to do it every now and then. Seems a little backwards?
Also, running down the iPod until it won't play music anymore, but it still is able to power up and display the low battery warning. Then doesn't it still have some charge in it? Would that be still considered a full discharge then?
Zoidberg,
The passage you found only relates to batteries with fuel gauges. I'm not sure if the iPod's battery qualifies as this but I would imagine so as the battery level indicator probably gets its info from such a fuel gauge. Anyway, what they mean is, short discharge cycles don't harm the battery but they affect the accuracy of the fuel gauge. The only way to recalibrate the fuel gauge is to deep cycle the battery but obviously you want to do this as little as possible. I guess they're saying that 30 cycles is the best trade-off of maintaining cycle life and maintaining fuel gauge accuracy.
See this page for more info:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-18.htm
As for whether the iPod not being able to play music anymore but still power up is considered a full discharge, it must have some charge to power up. However, if you pay attention to the various authors' language, they speak about deep discharges as well as full discharges. I would imagine that you don't have to completely discharge to have a negative effect on your battery life.
# 17 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
so would a couple of full discharges hurt that battery? or enought to be noticable? if you can only turn back time ;)
# 18 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by Zither
I just got a new 30G iPod and battery life is a main concern to me as it's not very easy to replace.
It does seem a bit stupid if Apple didn't write some code to help preserve battery life, and expecting users to 'manage' their battery?
As I see it, they state that the battery indicator doesn't reflect the real charge left in the battery and is only an estimate. On mine I've noticed it bounce up and down during playback.
Without some accurate measure on the iPod itself are we expected to carry an egg timer with us so that once we're near 8 hours usage we should stop using it until we can recharge? :confused:
I don't know for a fact that Apple hasn't written such battery-management code into the iPod. But I do know how a Li-Ion battery itself behaves, external to any iPod circuitry. Added to that, I have anecdotal evidence vis-a-vis my friend's reduced battery life on a similar iPod which suggests to me that there is no such circuitry or code.
In any case, I'm sure that battery manufacturers take peoples' usage patterns into account. They expect you to fully discharge your battery occasionally and would take that into account in their warranty, etc. Besides, have you ever known anyone to bring in a battery on warranty?
# 19 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by ZoidbergD
so would a couple of full discharges hurt that battery? or enought to be noticable? if you can only turn back time ;)
You got me there. All I know is that I'll try my best not to find out :D Currently, I listen to my iPod for 2-3 hours at work and have it charging in my car on the commute to work and home, so I should be pretty safe.
# 20 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by tonicboy
I think most people would agree I've done my very best to provide you with some helpful advice, but if you insist on not believing me, then go ahead and run your batteries out to your heart's content. Myself, I will have a very well cared for Li-Ion battery and will get the most out of its lifecycle.
I simply pointed out that it's always in a manufacturers best interest to avoid allowing customers to damage their products and that I would be surprised if they knowingly allowed users to thrash the battery on a product where the battery is not user replaceable.
Your anecdotal evidence of your friend's reduced battery life on his Ipod is not proof of battery discharging affecting the longterm battery life of the unit, it's again, merely anecdotal evidence.
I work in an engineering/testing/debugging environment and I can tell you that manufacturers take weaknesses in their products very seriously. We have redesigned entire PCBs to fix a single capacitor that could add 1% to the failure rate of a product.
Again, to reiterate, I would be amazed if Apple knowingly designed their product to require that users follow some sort of maintenance routine on the battery (since it would only end up costing them when the unit comes back in for service).
I realize that you have anointed yourself the ayitollah of batteries, but you need to get some additional evidence that discharging the ipod shortens it's battery life, beyond your friend and his unit (and why exactly hasn't he gotten it fixed anyway?).
Gunner at 2007-11-15 14:35:42 >
# 21 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
so is it the conensus say that the ipod should be fully charged and discharged for the first 3 charges? because my ipod is defectiev and i'm getting a replacement and would like to take care of it the best i can.
# 22 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by Gunner
I simply pointed out that it's always in a manufacturers best interest to avoid allowing customers to damage their products and that I would be surprised if they knowingly allowed users to thrash the battery on a product where the battery is not user replaceable.
Your anecdotal evidence of your friend's reduced battery life on his Ipod is not proof of battery discharging affecting the longterm battery life of the unit, it's again, merely anecdotal evidence.
I work in an engineering/testing/debugging environment and I can tell you that manufacturers take weaknesses in their products very seriously. We have redesigned entire PCBs to fix a single capacitor that could add 1% to the failure rate of a product.
Again, to reiterate, I would be amazed if Apple knowingly designed their product to require that users follow some sort of maintenance routine on the battery (since it would only end up costing them when the unit comes back in for service).
I realize that you have anointed yourself the ayitollah of batteries, but you need to get some additional evidence that discharging the ipod shortens it's battery life, beyond your friend and his unit (and why exactly hasn't he gotten it fixed anyway?).
I have no idea why you are so hell-bent on making this an argument. Is it really so hard for you to believe this? I've already shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lithium Ion batteries should not in fact be fully discharged except if you want to recalibrate your fuel gauge. I've also shared some anecodotal evidence which is actually fairly scientific - two people start out with the same iPods and have similar usage patterns with the exception of mostly controlled difference with a clear result. However, I have also admitted that it's just an anecodote.
I'm not about to respond to your challenge of proving my theory further for one simple reason - you have been in an argument the whole time but I have not. I have simply been stating facts in an effort to provide iPodlounge users with some usefuladvice. I have nothing to prove. I've clearly stated what I know to be true and what I don't know to be true, and I say again - whether or not you follow my advice is up to you. But I have the funny feeling, the next time your iPod is at 1 bar, you just might turn it off. Anyway, if you respond to this topic, please make sure it is to add some useful information to the discussion, because you're the only one arguing here.
-tonicboy
p.s. If you're just sore that I took you to school on my previous reply, then I apologize, but you were really asking for it. But for crying out loud, get over it.
p.p.s. I'm not sure why my friend has not gotten his iPod fixed yet - I'm not his mother so I don't babysit him. But if you're trying to use this as some evidence that I'm wrong, you're really grasping at straws, buddy.
# 23 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Running a full charge/discharge cycle does eventually have a long term effect on the battery life. After hundreds of such cycles you will end up with a resulting shortening of the battery life of about 20%
NEC depth charge analysis on Lithium Ion Polymer (http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/ddc/eng/lib/e_lib10.htm)
That really doesn't account for this dramatic effect you describe where the battery of the ipod can be reduced from it's normal operating life of 10 hours to around 4 hours (the case of your friend).
So yes, you are right, heavy charge/discharge cycling will have an effect on the battery, but not a very severe one.
While looking for some actual scientific measurements on this I also ran across a similar chart by a major battery manufacturer, which again demonstrates that the long term affect is about 20% and it takes 100's of such cycles to have a major impact.
The personal insults you have been using in this thread (taking people to school, etc) are just childish ego stroking... I am simply trying to get to the bottom of what you were claiming... do users really have to worry with fear that if they run their ipod out that it will hammer their battery? It seems that if a user periodicially runs out their battery it will not have a very significant effect on the life of the battery. Only hard cycling hundred+ times will have a truly noticeable affect and even then it will be a reduction of battery life of about 5-20%.
Gunner at 2007-11-15 14:38:45 >
# 24 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by Gunner
The personal insults you have been using in this thread (taking people to school, etc) are just childish ego stroking... I am simply trying to get to the bottom of what you were claimingYour previous post:Originally posted by Gunner
I realize that you have anointed yourself the ayitollah of batteries...Try again. You're the one who introduced personal insults. Given that we've both thrown out an insult, let's just call it even on that matter. Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject. Not because I'm trying to get the last word in, but I truly have nothing else to add. I don't claim to know more than the facts which I have already stated. And having already stated them, I have nothing more to say. If you find out more information, then please report it to the group, but please don't direct anything at me.
# 25 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
*nervous laugh*
Um...look....a bunny!
# 26 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Well the whole point of me being such a P.I.T.A over this whole thing is that I am tired of seeing mis-information spreading on the Internet.
Saying that if you discharge your battery you are going to see a 60% reduction in battery life didn't seem right to me, so I checked it out for myself.
Gunner at 2007-11-15 14:41:40 >
# 27 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
Originally posted by Gunner
Well the whole point of me being such a P.I.T.A over this whole thing is that I am tired of seeing mis-information spreading on the Internet.
Yeah, good luck combatting that.
# 28 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
At work, I use my iPod for just around 7 hours straight. 730-1130 i use it, then lunch break for an hour, then 1230-330. usually lasts a bit longer. volume at about 85 % and no backlight
# 29 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
I've had many Li-Ion battery devices (many replacible) over the years and letting them ever going near 0 will turn your battery into rocks (well crystalize). I accidently let my Clie go to 0 for about a day, now i have to recharge it EVERY DAY or i can't use it whereas before i can use it for 2-3 days fine. Li-Ion has very different chemistry from NiCD or NiMH which i also deal with extensivly (i race RC cars/boats/plains).
# 30 Re: My little 3rd Gen iPod little Battey Test
I applaud tonicboy for his mature handling of such harsh treatment despite his obviously well researched efforts to help the ipod community!
I also acknowledge the other's points and arguments...
We're all interested in improving out pod's performance aren't we?
You know what really hits battery life? Leaving your ipod in the microwave too long!
Glad i haven't tried that yet....
