EU Volume / False Advertising
Hi Everyone,
This is regarding the EU volume issue BUT not about fixing it but rather on how to return it to the retailer for a full refund. This is why it is not in any of the existing threads...
Apple advertises the UK iPod with 60mW output...just like the US model. I printed the web pages before they make up their mind and change this...if they EVER do.
Since the EU iPod has lower max output than the US version it CANNOT have 60mW and is therefore incorrectly advertised.
AFAIK, false advertising is illegal in the UK and I will try to return my iPod to Micro Anvika (the retailer where I bought it) based on this. Not that it's their fault but it's their responsibility to return it to Apple and get their money back.
I have contacted Apple to get the following in writing:
- The UK iPod cannot be fixed/repaired/updated to get the full output volume that the US model offers
- They acknowledge that the specs advertised on the web site are the same for both models but in fact the models are different.
Once I got this, I'll contact the retailer and take it up with them.
I strongly recommend that anyone who cares about their volume on EU iPods does the same as this should be the ONLY way to put pressure on Apple.
I'll give you an update once this progresses....
Cheers
[1400 byte] By [
ewok666] at [2007-11-9 12:41:18]
# 1 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
You might be interested in putting your post in the Apple forum as well:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?13@172.IHR2atMuaXu.0@.efb9281
penbat at 2007-11-15 14:16:25 >
# 2 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
You might be interested in putting your post in the Apple forum as well:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?13@172.IHR2atMuaXu.0@.efb9281
I would be if I wasn't quite sure that they'll just delete it :mad:
# 3 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Well i posted a thread on the Apple forum called "Euro Volume cap Stinks" about a week ago and it was still there last time i looked. Also at present there is a thread in part discussing this issue and having links to ipod lounge.
penbat at 2007-11-15 14:18:23 >
# 4 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
Well i posted a thread on the Apple forum called "Euro Volume cap Stinks" about a week ago and it was still there last time i looked. Also at present there is a thread in part discussing this issue and having links to ipod lounge.
OK, I'll post it when I get a chance to register there ;-)
# 5 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
Well i posted a thread on the Apple forum called "Euro Volume cap Stinks" about a week ago and it was still there last time i looked. Also at present there is a thread in part discussing this issue and having links to ipod lounge.
OK, I've added it. It'll be interesting to see how long it lasts ;-)
# 6 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
Well i posted a thread on the Apple forum called "Euro Volume cap Stinks" about a week ago and it was still there last time i looked. Also at present there is a thread in part discussing this issue and having links to ipod lounge.
It lasted about one hour ;-)
Just got this email:
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# 7 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
ewok666,
I have to say your approach seems very measured and worthy of success.
Micro Anvika is of course responsible for refunding/replacing items, as your original "contract" was with them, if my understanding of consumer law is correct.
Bob at 2007-11-15 14:22:24 >
# 8 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
You must have been unlucky eewok666, there have been other highly critical posts on the Apple site been up for hours and they were still there a few minutes ago.
penbat at 2007-11-15 14:23:27 >
# 9 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
You must have been unlucky eewok666, there have been other highly critical posts on the Apple site been up for hours and they were still there a few minutes ago.
It's OK...I expected nothing else from them. My conversations with the VERY evasive Customer Service usually go around in circles:
I: Do you agree that the ipod does not have the same output as the US model?
They: It has the same specifications but it is limited by software because of the EU regulations.
I: So you agree that the output cannot be the same?
They: I am not technical, I cannot confirm this
and so on and so on and so on
I must say that if this goes on, I will NOT EVER AGAIN buy an Apple product. This is clearly NOT the way I'd expect to be treated...
# 10 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
You must have been unlucky eewok666, there have been other highly critical posts on the Apple site been up for hours and they were still there a few minutes ago. I disagree. Apple is notorious for deleting posts that aren't pro-Apple from their forums. True, they sometimes miss posts, but I don't think that eewok666 was unlucky, I think that he/she experienced Apple's idea of "forum moderation", which is way over-the-top. Check out the Dell boards, and do a forum search for "terrible", "horrible", or words like that. You'll see that not all companies delete criticism, and sometimes they even learn from it.
On-topic, I think the "as advertised" angle is a good one, but I'm not sure that you'll get the written admission that you're looking for from Apple. I wish you luck, though - it would suck for anyone to get stuck with an mp3 player they're not happy with.
Edited to correct gender-specific pronoun.
# 11 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Obviously reading from the Tony Blair Book of Evasive Answers.....................
Bob at 2007-11-15 14:26:33 >
# 12 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
ermm... 60mW eh? *grabs calculator and punches away* that is equal to 107.8 dB. That's err... loud! Now I appreciate that it won't be 100% effecient (the headphones that is).
However if I assume that it was a 20% loss (48mW) then that's still 106.8dB.
That's a really rather impressive volume really, official threshold of pain is around 120-125dB (from memory).
Anyway, the reason I was replying was to first give you that info, since you may want some extra figures to back up your claims. However, technically, I don't believe that they are advertising falsely on the website. Technically, the iPod's amplifier may well be 60mW (and probably is) and since that's a measure of power of the amplifier, it's true. However what they don't say is that you can never turn the amplifier up to full. So basically 60mW is a true figure, and it may well be used on the Line-Out jack too.
Drewpy at 2007-11-15 14:27:31 >
# 13 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by Drewpy
However, technically, I don't believe that they are advertising falsely on the website. Technically, the iPod's amplifier may well be 60mW (and probably is) and since that's a measure of power of the amplifier, it's true. However what they don't say is that you can never turn the amplifier up to full. So basically 60mW is a true figure, and it may well be used on the Line-Out jack too.
The website states, under the Audio section, that the maximum ***output*** power is 60mW. Therefore I assume that this is what the output of the device will be...... +/- a little. If it is less, I expect them to say so...that's the idea of corrrect advertising as opposed to false advertising.
And yes, they refuse to give you anything in writing and ask that the retailer contacts them directly. However, it's getting to the point where I might be happy to do whatever it takes to get the thing returned :-|
# 14 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Well it still could be the max output power, I have no idea what the line-out level would be in relation to the headphone.. I'd have thought it would be a little more, so the 60mW could be reflecting the line level, not the headphone level.
Drewpy at 2007-11-15 14:29:33 >
# 15 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by ewok666
And yes, they refuse to give you anything in writing and ask that the retailer contacts them directly. However, it's getting to the point where I might be happy to do whatever it takes to get the thing returned :-|
i wish you luck in trying to do this. but honestly, i don't think apple will crumble. have you opened your ipod? thought about putting it on ebay? might just be best to cut your losses and save yourself some time and frustration.
# 16 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Any way of somehow connecting earphones to the line out ?
penbat at 2007-11-15 14:31:35 >
# 17 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
Any way of somehow connecting earphones to the line out ?
I tried the line out...there does not seem to be any difference. I'll call them again today to see what they have to say ;-)
# 18 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
My line out (Euro IPod) is actually a lot softer than the normal earphone output !!!!!!
penbat at 2007-11-15 14:33:36 >
# 19 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by penbat
My line out (Euro IPod) is actually a lot softer than the normal earphone output !!!!!!
I just spoke to Apple...for about 10 minutes...and essentailly they say that the output of the EU and the US iPod is the same. It's only the volume that is limited. When I asked how the volume can be limited without limiting the output they didn't know.
They REFUSED to acknowledge the fact that the output of the EU model cannot be the same as the output of the US model. I can only conclude that either these people are extremely stupid or that they deliberately try to obscure the issue.
I mean HOW can the volume be less (on the same headphones)when the output is the same? Helloooooo??
# 20 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Apple are stonewalling. I'm not aware of any of the media picking up on this. They should be helpful.
There is Watchdog on the BBC site
& Trading standards
penbat at 2007-11-15 14:35:46 >
# 21 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
try hitting up maxmimum pc's watchdog:
http://www.maximumpc.com/others/contacts.html
# 22 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Bunch of kids arguing it out with a first-line Apple Support guy isn't going to solve anything... Use your brains :rolleyes: Provide evidence of your claims (not subjective, but absolutes or relatives) and book your iPod in as a faulted unit.
Also, get a printout of the Apple UK website tech specs for the iPod now before they change it.
To me the standard crap earbuds are perfectly loud enough. It's if you try and use other higher impedance phones that there's a problem. But how many of those whinging about this matter are just getting on the bandwagon and using the standard crap phones (or swapping them out for crappier ones)?
# 23 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
There is a difficulty in trying to get legal recourse, in that far from making the iPod 'unfit for purpose' the EU volume limitation merely provides enhanced 'health and safety' protection for the user, and is applied in order to meet the legal requirements of an EU member state. I may be anti-European and cynical, but think it's likely that the cap on the volume of such players may become EU law sooner than you might think. If and when that happens you'd have no legal recourse whatever, since your requirement, volume wise, would be something that would be illegal for Apple to supply.
The iPod ought to be loud enough even with the cap (if you want it louder you're almost certainly damaging your ears), but because the volume cap tends to make one crank up the volume higher than one otherwise would be, there's a valid argument that Apple are also capping the battery life, and perhaps one could get them for that?
# 24 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by columbo
Bunch of kids arguing it out with a first-line Apple Support guy isn't going to solve anything... Use your brains :rolleyes: Provide evidence of your claims (not subjective, but absolutes or relatives) and book your iPod in as a faulted unit.
Also, get a printout of the Apple UK website tech specs for the iPod now before they change it.
To me the standard crap earbuds are perfectly loud enough. It's if you try and use other higher impedance phones that there's a problem. But how many of those whinging about this matter are just getting on the bandwagon and using the standard crap phones (or swapping them out for crappier ones)?
First of all, not that this offends me but...I'm not a kid. Also, I did get a printed copy of both spec pages (UK and US). And, yes the iPod is loud enough under most circumstances. Unfortunately I use it on the Tube...the London underground/subway..every day. These ancient vehicles do not have air condition so the have the windows open and the amount of noise is unbelievable. If anything, the UK version of the iPod should offer ADDITIONAL volume!
Furthermore, my time is simply to valuable to waste over this issue. The iPod will be sold on ebay and I will get a Zen...or similar...player.
# 25 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
I don't care if anyone's offended. I'm just saying it like it is. There's the stink of the herd on this matter, and whinging to some underpaid guy at Apple isn't going to solve your issues. I'm sorry if I referred to any people who're complaining as kids, but it was a natural assumption on my part as you're acting like one.
Incidentally the iPod is louder than the vast majority of the minidiscs or discmen produced by the big names within the last 4 years or so. Is there a huge volume backlash? No. As I said before, there is no issue with the standard earphones. Using your head, it should also be very obvious that being able to turn up your open earphone or not very isolating earphone (like the Sony EX series) to clearly override London Underground noise would result in hearing damage. Not to mention (with the standard earbuds) ####ing off your fellow passengers.
I have had volume problems but only because I've been trying to use good headphones which needs more power, and really could do with that claimed 30mw/channel output. Instead of whinging about it here I've returned the iPod to Apple with supporting documentation, test results, etc. I also synced test tracks and tones to corroborate my evidence (my problems aren't just volume related). As for what happens after this, this is up to Apple.
If the repair fails, I will expect to get a full refund which I'll sit on until something newer comes along. I don't believe the Zen is an option: It's big, ugly and output power isn't that different.
# 26 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Originally posted by columbo
I don't really care if anyone's offended. I'm just saying it like it is.
What phones are you using on the LU ewok? You do know an open earphone (you'll also get something similar with the Zen)won't isolate you at all, right?
Well then it is like this: Apple doesn't care if ANYONE complains about this....
I use the Sony MDR-EX71. They are not open headphones.
# 27 Re: EU Volume / False Advertising
Blimey, you're quick. Sorry, edited the post. The POS EX doesn't isolate that much in comparison to proper closed phones / earbuds. Then read my post to penbat in the Gear forum re: Shure E2C and EX71. Then kick yourself.
