On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
It's patently not flame bait to calmly explain why one believes that Apple is not obliged to provide all the new improvements which characterise the 3rd Gen iPod to those of us with 1st and 2nd Gen iPods, nor to correct the misapprehension that Apple no longer supports older iPods (it does). Nor is it flame bait to contradict the accusation that it does not provide updates for older iPods (what was 1.3, for goodness sake?).
Apple have provided the features they advertised when we bought our early generation iPods, and have actually done a good job in providing post-sale improvements and refinements, especially in rectifying battery life (a major concern) through software updates. They are bound to leave some new features as Gen 3 only, if only to provide an incentive for users to 'switch up' to the new model. To say so should not be construed as being particularly argumentative, let alone flame bait.
Some of the 'Apple sucks cos it won't give me games, OTG playlists' and 'Apple make me angry' complaints are pretty confrontational however, and often verge on the kind of posts which do encourage the 'platform debates' which we try to avoid, and which are therefore a mild type of flame bait themselves.
iPodman's original post wasn't a simple question - it was a thinly veiled attack on Apple for what he assumed it was doing (not providing updates and support) and in particular for not providing specific features from the new model (which it may still do) which he assumed was simple for the company to do (which it may not have been). He proclaimed his anger at Apple, and accused the company of 'fooling him'. This is all highly subjective and pretty hostile stuff, and was a long way from the "legitimate question, i.e., Is Apple going to do a particular thing" which you describe.
It's a bit disturbing to see a mod come down so hard and so unevenly on those espousing one side of a legitimate debate. If those who say "You shouldn't expect every new feature to be retrospectively made available for Gen 1 users" are 'trolling' then you must make the same judgement about anyone who says "I'm angry because Apple haven't provided every new feature from the Gen 3 to be retrospectively made available for Gen 1 users."
There are clearly strong feelings on both sides, and it's so let's at least maintain some semblance of even handedness, eh?
Just my opinion, you understand.
[2564 byte] By [
Jackonicko] at [2007-11-9 12:37:17]
# 1 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
It's a bit disturbing to see a mod come down so hard and so unevenly on those espousing one side of a legitimate debate. If those who say "You shouldn't expect every new feature to be retrospectively made available for Gen 1 users" are 'trolling' then you must make the same judgement about anyone who says "I'm angry because Apple haven't provided every new feature from the Gen 3 to be retrospectively made available for Gen 1 users."
I don't read Ipodman's OP the way you read it. Ipodman is a newbie, so even if you disagree with his post's claims, you, and the others all know that this debate has been conducted unsucessfully elsewhere. It's knowing that the issue will start a flame war and posting on it anyway that makes it flame-baiting, not the statement of one or another side's opinion. Ipodman didn't know better; the others did. Newbies are always going to come onto these boards and ask old questions, and anyone who uses thier newness as a means to open old sore debates is flame-baiting.
And personally I don't think there's a "legitimate debate" here, because both sides consist of people doing nothing but announcing emotional opinions. I honestly don't understand why folks on either side , including you, Jacko, get so worked up over this issue, or feel the need rehash it over and over again.
BTW - I'll be moving this post and Jacko's to the "Feedback" forum.
# 2 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
The simple fact is that you choose to allow "Apple sucks cos they won't give me all the features of a Gen 3" type posts, and then move a polite defence of Apple's position.
That's not moderation, that's highly partial censorship, and I'm surprised at you.
# 3 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
I am going to have to agree with Jacko on this one. I think that some moderators go to far and are using their power for evil and not good. If there are post that allow a lot of negative response towards anything, then the defense post should be involved with that thread.
ToddW at 2007-11-15 18:27:25 >
# 4 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
Jacko,
I moved your post, which was about my decision, not about the thread's topic, to the apporpriate forum, precisely so the thread wouldn't be derailed. You weren't merely "defending Apple's position" - your post's main point was to accuse me. I moved your post, and I provided a link to this thread. You want to call it "censorship," that's fine with me.
ToddW:
I think that some moderators go to far and are using their power for evil and not good.
Jacko's post was off-topic, and about a policy matter. I felt it belonged here. I can understand you disagreeing with my decision, but "evil" seems a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
# 5 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
Also agree with Jacko. This is the second time (happy to recount the first if needed) I have found myself on the "wrong side" of eustace's view of the world. I doubt any of us (I know I wasn't) were at all "worked up" about the 2nd Gen update issue, sorry for stating another view - I guess. Please don't characterize views of others that you don't personally agree with as 'flame baiting.' In this particular case, our views are no more tired ('ad nauseum' was your term I believe) than the views of the originator of the thread, and certainly no more volatile.
I enjoy this forum immensely and I have learned a lot here. I truly admire and appreciate the moderators here who have helped me directly, it can't be fun or easy. But lighten up eustace...we're not solving world hunger here.
# 6 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
MidPack, just out of curiosity, when you saw Ipodman's OP, why didn't you just ignore it? As I said above, the topic itself is not flame bait, but the topic in this context is. You knew folks would argue; Ipodman had no way of knowing it was a "hot" topic. Why not let it drop, especially since Bob gave him such a reaosnable answer?
# 7 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
I simply thought his expectations were unrealistic. It seemed that a few analogous examples (PC OS's, someone else mentioned new model cars) might be the best way to provide a context for Ipodman to reassess his expectations. Jeez, I never gave this another thought after I posted this morning, and I wonder if Ipodman has either...
# 8 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
Jeez, I never gave this another thought after I posted this morning, and I wonder if Ipodman has either...
Well, I figured as much; it's why I just posted a warning. I hope you understand I'm not siding with Ipodman - I'm pointing out that those of us who've been on the boards long enough know this topic is volitile, and when a newbie posts in reference to it, taking the bait is liable to start a flame war.
# 9 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
I don't have your experience with the forum, like most posters. But I will stay away from this topic, it's not important to me in the first place, and I was in no way trying to start a flame war.
# 10 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
First off, my post (at the top of this thread) was not primarily about accusing you. It was simply challenging your accusation that three named Podders were flame-baiting and noting that you had used rude and dismissive language about points which they'd made pretty politely and reasonably.
"Everyone and their mother is painfully aware of your opinions on this matter, as they have been related, ad nauseum in other threads. Enough is enough. We all know some folks find it deeply unsettling that other folks want OTG playlists. We get the message: you're deeply troubled by users of old iPods wanting new features."
With all due respect (and I do think that some is due) if anyone de-railed the original topic it was you, Eustace, with your hostility to (and dismissiveness of) those podders who disagreed with the original poster's sentiments, and by your contention that anything likely to lead to an argument is flame bait. By that logic, surely no-one is allowed to disagree with anything anyone says?
But when iPodman posted, it was reasonable for others to disagree, so long as they did so politely and reasonably, while once you made your post it was only reasonable for people to politely disagree with you.
You asked MidPack, "just out of curiosity" why didn't he just ignore the topic after he saw Ipodman's OP? Well perhaps he felt that ill-informed accusations about Apple "leaving a buyer without support or updates" required some counterbalance, or that iPodman's 'anger' with Apple might be assuaged by a polite, well constructed explanation. Correct me if I misunderstand, but isn't the place of a moderator to ensure that a given debate remains civilised, and not to decide what we may or may not debate (beyond the specific exclusions of platform choice, politics and country dancing)? It may be tedious to rehash the same points again and again, but if that were grounds for moderation, we'd never see another EX70 thread again. Moreover, while iPodman's post may have been a largely emotional argument, to point out that Apple is providing upgrades and support is simply factual, while to suggest that Apple may want to "leave some new features as Gen 3 only, if only to provide an incentive for users to 'switch up' to the new model" is hardly "announcing emotional opinions" either.
I also think that you're perhaps slightly over concerned about flaming. Thanks in part to your cracking down when it was appropriate, debates are now conducted in a much less robust and much more civilised manner, and the kind of 'flame war' which you seek to protect us from no longer seems to happen, and hasn't done since the forum change. There is now more danger from over-moderation by the 'fun police' taking away the joy from the iPodlounge than there is from intemperate souls offending people.
As Midpack said: "our views are no more tired ('ad nauseum' was your term I believe) than the views of the originator of the thread, and certainly no more volatile."
If defending Apple from silly and mistaken charges of not 'doing the right thing by existing users' is regarded as flame bait, then those sort of accusations must be the same thing.
So let's have some even handedness, eh?
# 11 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
Well, Jacko, we disagree on our interpretations of what happened. I wasn't intending to support one side of the argument or the other, but I can see how my action was percieved as such.
and the kind of 'flame war' which you seek to protect us from no longer seems to happen, and hasn't done since the forum change. There is now more danger from over-moderation by the 'fun police' taking away the joy from the iPodlounge than there is from intemperate souls offending people.
Perhaps. That's definitely something to think about. I'm not trying to take away the "fun", that's for sure, nor am I interested in stifling honest, polite debate. Perhaps I just don't have faith in the success of this particular topic. I'll keep what you and MidPack have written in mind in the future.
# 12 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
Nicely put. Thanks for that.
I do think you should have more faith, though, cos the new fora have been a more polite and friendly place, thanks in part to rigorous moderating in the past.
But the worst offenders have vanished or grown up, and a lighter touch may now be more appropriate.
# 13 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
This has been an unfortunate misunderstanding hasn't it. While I still believe eustace isn't always able to put his personal biases aside, we're all guilty of that. Moderators have a lot of ground to cover here, and in return for their efforts, they probably get undue scrutiny and little thanks. At the same time, I have seen thoughtful, worthwhile discussions from both of you on a wide variety of topics.
I value this forum. I am convinced we all had the best intentions, and we all appreciate the iPod. Note that Ipodman seems to have moved on, I will take my que (cue?) from him...thanks gentlemen.
# 14 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
Originally posted by eustacescrubb
In this context, reponses like these count as flame-baiting (because you know when you write them that an argument will start), and in the future, I'll take appropriate action.
Oh please. I'm sure they're all shaking in their little space boots :rolleyes:
# 15 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
If you'd allow an afterthought...I agree with madpick and ensure you that I had similar intentions. Didn't mean setting any sparks whatsoever...
The experience has left me a bit wary of posting in general in the future since as madpick I have no idea what has caused heated arguments or the like in the past. I generally stay away from topics I find tedious and rehashed (battery life anyone?) but my opinion is necessarily subjective.
But also thanks for the honest and open debate.
# 16 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
sorry not madpick midpack :-)
# 17 Re: On Flame bait in the Will there ever be an Update for 2 Gen Ipods? thread
ginalee.
Please don't feel like you shouldn't post. My opinion on what happened is in the minority. We used to have some flame war problems on the old boards, and this particular issue is quite divisive here, as it is all over the internet. But this sort of thing is really quite rare here.
Everyone:
I'm reversing my earlier statement; I will NOT be counting "responses like these" as flame-bait. That was a bad judgement call on my part; please accept my apologies for it.
